🎧 Episode Summary: What happens when your past tries to define your future? In this powerful episode of Taboo Talk with Sarah, I sit down with Jacqui Wilkinson—a Royal Air Force Wing Commander, hypnotherapist, fitness coach, and author of Turning the Tables on Trauma—to explore how childhood trauma shapes our leadership, self-worth, and relationships. Jacqui shares her deeply personal journey of surviving childhood abuse, understanding the generational patterns that keep trauma cycling, and breaking free to create a life of strength, leadership, and healing. She opens up about the role of achievement as a coping mechanism, the importance of trauma-informed leadership, and how she was able to stop generational trauma in its tracks—ensuring that her children never inherited the pain of her past. This episode is a raw, eye-opening conversation about resilience, breaking free from limiting beliefs, and choosing to rewrite your story. If you’ve ever struggled with self-worth, felt the weight of past trauma, or wondered if healing was truly possible—this one’s for you. 💜 Your past does not have to define you. It's how you rise from it that does.
📌 Key Takeaways:
✔️ Breaking Generational Trauma – How Jacqui stopped the cycle and ensured her children were raised differently
✔️ Super-Achievement as a Coping Mechanism – Why many high-achievers push themselves to extremes
✔️ Trauma-Informed Leadership – How understanding trauma makes us better leaders, parents, and partners
✔️ Rewiring the Brain for Healing – The neuroscience behind overcoming childhood adversity
✔️ The Power of Owning Your Story – Why sharing your truth helps dissolve shame
💬 Standout Quotes:
🗣️ "Who would I be without my achievements? I thought I’d be no one. That’s how little I valued myself." – Jacqui Wilkinson
🗣️ "You don’t have to pass down what happened to you. You get to decide what kind of parent, leader, and person you want to be."
🗣️ "Trauma doesn’t just disappear—it hides in plain sight. Leadership means seeing the unseen and helping others rise."
⏳ Key Moments in the Episode:
⏱ 00:00 – Welcome & Introduction to Jacqui Wilkinson
⏱ 05:30 – Growing up in a dysfunctional home: The 9 ACEs that shaped Jacqui’s childhood
⏱ 12:45 – Using achievement as a coping mechanism: The endless chase for self-worth
⏱ 18:10 – The pivotal moment: Breaking free from survival mode
⏱ 22:35 – The impact of trauma on leadership: Why we need trauma-informed leaders
⏱ 28:50 – Healing & parenting: How Jacqui ensured her children never inherited her trauma
⏱ 33:20 – The power of sharing your story: How speaking out dissolves shame
⏱ 40:49 – Why kindness and connection can change lives: The story of a soldier she helped
⏱ 50:19 – Final thoughts: "Your past does not define you—it’s how you rise from it that does."
🌟 Notable Mentions:
✔️ Turning the Tables on Trauma – Jacqui’s book (All profits go to Access Counseling, supporting survivors of abuse)
✔️ Access Counseling – The organization that helped Jacqui start her healing journey
✔️ Los Angeles Tribune Women’s Journal – Co-founded by Jacqui, dedicated to empowering women
✔️ Mental Health Support Resources:
📞 Lifeline Australia – 13 11 14 | Lifeline Online Chat
📞 Beyond Blue – 1300 22 4636 | Beyond Blue Online Chat
📞 Suicide Call Back Service – 1300 659 467 | Suicide Callback Online
📢 Call to Action:
💜 If this episode spoke to you, please share it. Share it with a friend, a family member—someone who needs to hear that healing is possible.
💬 Let’s keep this conversation going. What’s one takeaway from today’s episode? Drop a comment or DM me on social media!
📖 Want to support Jacqui’s mission? Buy her book, Turning the Tables on Trauma, and know that every purchase supports survivors of abuse.
🎧 Don’t forget to subscribe! Leave a review and share this episode with someone who needs to know: they are not alone.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (00:01) Hey everybody, welcome back to Taboo Talk with Sarah. The podcast that breaks the silence, fosters hope and tackles the tough conversations so you never have to feel alone. If you're new here, I'm Sarah Jordan Ross. I'm a wife, a mum to three incredible boys and I've spent the last 25 years or so in the health and wellness space as a massage therapist, wellness coach and passionate advocate for open transformative conversations. On this show, we don't shy away from the hard stuff.
We bring light to the topics that too often get left in the shadows because we believe that healing starts with honest conversations. And today's guest is someone whose story and resilience and dedication to helping others embodies exactly what we're all about here. I'm honored to welcome Jackie Wilkinson, a Royal Air Force Wing Commander, a certified hypnotherapist, a fitness coach and author.
and a researcher. She's also co-founder of the Los Angeles Tribune Women's Journal and a passionate advocate for trauma healing and personal transformation. She's kind of impressive, just quietly. She's also part of Debbie Prediger's Empowering You community, which is how we connected. And what's always stood out for me about Jackie is how she's turned her pain
Jacqui (01:12)
You
Sarah Jordan-Ross (01:28)
into purpose and use that not just for healing herself, but for empowering others. Her book, Turning the Tables on Trauma, is a deeply personal and powerful exploration of surviving childhood sexual abuse, understanding the generational patterns that keep trauma cycling, and breaking free to create a life of strength, leadership, healing, and purpose. And she's achieved incredible success.
not just in her military career which is impressive enough because being a Wing Commander and a woman is not that common.
And she's had success as an author, as a wellness coach as well. And like a lot of high achievers.
She's pushed through previous bad experiences. So I to ask, what happens though if you use that as a coping mechanism? What happens when that's no longer enough? And that's what we're diving into today. Daki, welcome to Taboo Talk. I'm so happy to have you here.
Jacqui (02:48)
Thank you, Sarah, for inviting me for this chat. I'm looking forward to it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (02:53)
So let's get right into it. I'd love to hear a little bit about your story, both your career as a Wing Commander, but also let's talk about your book and the story behind that. So what made you write it and how have those two things, so your previous life experiences and your military career
worked together.
Jacqui (03:27)
Yeah, so I'll start with the book first. What started this journey of writing a story? Well, I think it started back in 2016 and I was writing a master's dissertation.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (03:30)
Yes.
Jacqui (03:42)
The title of that dissertation was how does primary socialisation shape how we narrate our adult behaviours and how does that develop our leadership qualities. And in the military we are as officers we are leaders. That is the main crux of what we do. there to support and guide all of the subordinates that we command and that's probably one of the most important roles. when you understand what type of leader you are and what
why
you are the way you are, why you...
behave the way you do, why you lead the way you do. It was fascinating. So with this masters, I actually used my own story as the case study. So I analyzed my own story in relation to my primary socialization and how that developed me as a leader. My story at the start, you know, I grew up in a very dysfunctional home. I don't know you've heard
of ACEs but adverse childhood experiences. There are 10 and I was dealt a hand of nine ACEs from both biological parents. So all types of abuse, sexual, physical, emotional abuse, emotional neglect from my father and my mother. My mother was also a depressed alcoholic. There was loads of domestic violence. I'd witnessed the screaming, shouting, yelling, knives between them, mum being punched in the face, all sorts.
that I just thought was normal growing up. I just thought this is the way that families are. Because I knew no different. I knew nothing else. You don't. Behind closed doors, you know nothing else. You just think it's normal. And it's not normal. It's far from normal. And then what happens inside a child's mind when they are exposed to all of this repeatedly, it breaks down your inner worth, your belief.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (05:20)
Because, yeah, then that's the thing.
Jacqui (05:42)
your value in this world and you see yourself through a different lens and you see the world through a different lens. So in writing my dissertation, I uncovered like what are my values? What are my beliefs? What are the rituals? What are the proverbs I hear myself saying and things like don't judge a book by its cover. Very powerful for me because people would judge my family thought well they live on a farm, they've got horses, ponies, they're know, they're a happy family and I'm like you have no
idea what happens behind closed doors, right?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (06:14)
and so often we don't.
Jacqui (06:16)
No, we don't, you don't. And it breaks my heart when I think, you know, this is what happens to so many children. And then what happens to that child as you grow up, you have these limiting beliefs, know, these stories you tell about yourself. I'm not good enough, I can't do this, I can't do that. And when I was 17, my mum had kicked me out of the house and I'd hit rock bottom and I tried to take my own life.
and I failed, so it was an overdose, failed that. But at that point at 17, I was, something's wrong with my mind, something needs to change because I'm so unhappy, so sad, so lonely, and it was because of all this amalgamation of abuse over the years. And so I turned to therapy and I spent 12 months in, I turned to Access Counseling, which is supporting survivors of sexual abuse.
I
really started to uncover the fear, the really overwhelming fear that was like shaping who I was becoming. And I was able to let go of some of that. So in my masters, I talk about this journey of like what I went through and what happened to me. I talk about my story of the abuse, the types of abuse, but I use the theory that's out there, all the different types of abuse, I interweave it into my own lived experience.
and saying, yeah, I became the lost child. I adopted a lost child role because when you have a dysfunctional sort of upbringing to provide balance to the home, people will adopt or children will adopt certain roles. This is where people pleasing comes from. So I grew up as a people pleaser because I was like, right, if I sit on the fence and I don't rock the boat, I can stabilize the family. And it's things like that that you discover, I'm like that because of that.
So the dissertation just allowed me to really uncover and become so self-aware that it really helped me heal. I did some deep healing during that writing. And then I did nothing with it. I got a distinction, so a really good mark, and I remember reading, it's a distinction as well. It's a publishable material. And I was like, huh, I don't think I'd ever publish it.
And then fast forward, fast forward. I was like, this has helped me so much. And I'm so fulfilled and so aware and so happy. Like my relationship with my husband was not great at the start when we met 10 years ago for reasons I can go into, but now it's just amazing. I was like, well, how'd you get from there to there? What do need to do? And I have two children. I have a daughter and a son, they're seven and five. And the one thing that
Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:38)
You
Jacqui (09:07)
that
I'm super proud of is that I was dealt a count of nine aces and I passed down none to them because I'm so aware of consciously parenting, of being present for them, of understanding, of being accountable. But when you do mess up, you take accountability for your own behaviors and you don't go, yeah, that was because it was done to me. You take that ownership, you become accountable and you model that behavior for your children so they understand the importance of we all make mistakes.
you know, this is what life is all about but this is how we do it and it's no blame, shame, etc.
And I learned all this through joining positive parenting communities because I was very much like, I have no idea how to be a decent parent. So I need to learn. So I'm a master classic at different things of trying to learn. So, so all of this went then into my book. And so, and I added some more bits and pieces to the book in relation to the theory went in there, but I added parts three of the book, which is called Honing Healthy Healing Strategies. Now,
I didn't know at the time because this is from reflection when you look back, you you live life forwards but you learn backwards. You're like, that worked and that worked because I'm a very curious person. Like, what makes you more resilient? What builds shame resilience? What makes you have the strength to overcome and then thrive? So I reflected back on everything that I had done and I'm massively into my physical exercise. You know, in the military it comes part and parcel of it.
I competed.
So in the athletics team, I was a heptathlete for many years. And then obviously moving your mental fitness is one of the most beneficial things you can do because it's a natural creator of endorphins, dopamine, serotonin. So all of these things, I was like, well, this is what really helped make me stronger and more resilient. As well as other things that I analyzed in the book, like community, because I was a leader of an athletics team, that was my community and I was giving to them and serving to them.
and we were then thriving as a team and I was able to give girls who didn't necessarily believe in their own abilities on the track and field, give them that self-belief that, no, you are good enough, you're part of my team and just when you do that, you give, it comes back to you tenfold. So all of these different things I noticed, like that's really powerful, this is powerful and I just incorporated it into my book to just to help other people really to go, these things work.
we will as survivors, we will naturally have a tendency to have maladaptive coping strategies to numb things out, to deal with emotion, to deal with the negativity and that is very normal and very common and you know back in the day when I was younger I would overeat, would...
just to numb the feelings. I remember a therapist saying to me once, when you're stifling things down, you're stopping emotions coming up and we do this by consuming alcohol, by consuming food. So when that feeling is happening and you're eating not for, I'm hungry, but just eating emotionally, there's a reason for that. So listen, listen out and listen to what it is and listen to yourself and try and understand that. And then I became very aware of those feelings.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (12:28)
Mm.
Jacqui (12:35)
and
go, okay, I'm emotionally eating here, why? What's going on? What's unresolved? What do I need to look at? And then now, you know, that never happens. And it's like, how do you share this? How do you help other people? How do I help the younger version of myself?
I remember 20 years ago when I joined the military, I just thought I was alone, I thought no one else has been through this, you know, and too scared to talk about it, too shameful to talk about it.
And now that I've had the courage to start sharing and talking about it, especially in the military, people are reaching out to me all ranks, you know, saying, yeah, me too. And I know I'm not alone. And it just takes that one person stood there in uniform to say this has happened and this does happen to people. And we need to be trauma informed leaders because you will have subordinates that have gone through some crap and they're all hiding in plain sight.
and we need to be alive to this because the statistics from the World Health Organization, it blows my mind. If I put into my book, I'm just like,
Sarah Jordan-Ross (13:46)
or one in three will be victims of sexual abuse somewhere in their lifetime. That's a little scary. And that's the thing. And that's part of why I started the podcast too, is like, we need to have these conversations. We need to know that you're not alone going through these experiences, but I've heard so often people talking about similar experiences.
Jacqui (13:54)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (14:14)
or that we go through similar things, nobody ever knows when it's the person that's standing next to them. That's the one that's going to say, Hey, yeah, I've been there too. So well done for opening that up within, within the military, but also sharing your story is coming with having nine aces and then not passing them on to your children because you, you did the hard work and that's
Jacqui (14:42)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (14:43)
That in itself is encouraging to others because it's like, well, she had a bad rap to start off with. And the fact that you then created a life where you're not just surviving through all of that, but you're thriving and you're actually making that conscious effort to not pass down those bad experiences to your children. And that sometimes is hard because as you said, growing up.
You just thought that was normal that everybody was like that. And when you don't have that good role model to, to take those, those cues from of how to be a good parent, it's great that you actually went and found, okay. I don't know how to do this. So how can I figure it out?
Jacqui (15:26)
Yeah.
Yeah,
well I had some great advice. I've been to therapy a few times at different stages when I've needed it. And I remember a therapist saying to me once, because I kept saying, yeah, I don't want children. Why do you want children? I'll a rubbish mom. It was one of those conversations. And then she said, why do you you'd be a rubbish mom? said, well, because I have no idea how to be a rubbish mom. I've got terrible role models. And then what she said to me was really powerful. She said,
Sarah Jordan-Ross (15:48)
Yeah.
Jacqui (15:58)
The thing is, you know exactly how not to be, which is the perfect place to start.
And that was the catalyst to believe and change my belief that, maybe I, maybe I could be, you know, a decent mum. And it was because of my mindset and how I'm a researcher at heart and just curious, okay, that's when I thought I had a child, right? How do I deal with this? Okay. Join a positive parent community and just learn from experts who understand child psychology, child development to educate me so I can see what's happening to help my little ones.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (16:04)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqui (16:33)
little human beings grow up to be the best version of themselves. So, yeah, and we have that, we have that option. Every parent has that option and it's all out there we have so many different communities online now that can do that. yeah, it's one of the best things I could have done, I think.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (16:53)
Yes, we need our tribe. need our community to help us get through things and finding that is a huge thing. So, quite often with what we do, pass it down. Do you have any other advice for
for people who've been through experiences like you have, who have that generational pattern to try and get out of. Any other advice for them of how to make those mindset shifts, how to find those things that will help and support you through that journey?
Jacqui (17:32)
Yeah, it's always the tools. What tool can you use? Because oftentimes this stuff is wired, hardwired into our nervous system. So it's a reaction that will happen. And one of the things I read once was...
Sarah Jordan-Ross (17:35)
Yeah.
Jacqui (17:48)
it's almost like someone described it as you've got this button on you and your button will get bigger and bigger and bigger, you know, when you're more rundown, when you're overwhelmed, when you're tired, when you've got lots of things going on. And kids are really good at pressing buttons, right? And so the more knackered you are, the tighter you are.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (18:06)
think they're hardwired too.
Jacqui (18:08)
Yeah, it's like going to a lift, all buns. It's really funny. So you've got to keep your button very small. How do you keep your button very small? By self care, by prioritizing self care. And when I became a mother, I thought it was selfish to go and do my phys and training. And then I realized, no, no, that one hour of me time means I show up as a better, stronger mum for the other 23 hours of the day. you know, mind asleep?
That is really key. And when I find myself getting into it, the feeling comes first before the reaction. So it's noticing your body. So if I'm going like this, going, okay, I'm getting overwhelmed, I'll ask myself, what do I need to right now?
Just stop in the moment, what do I need right now? And that might be as simple as, right, daddy, you've got the kids, I just need to go lie down, I'm exhausted. For five minutes, recharge and then come back. So you're not reacting in the moment and that helps you to better respond. it's, and you'll, with it, it's not beating yourself up. So if you do sort of raise your voice or whatever, if you do mess up, it's, okay, how could I have done that? Afterwards, how could I have done that better? And what can I do to change?
but
also if for example, you know, I've raised my voice to the kids, I will basically go to them and say, okay, it's okay. So, kids.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (19:36)
That's, yep. And he just snuck in, saw that I'm on here and went to find his dad because that's one of those. Yep.
Jacqui (19:43)
Oh, bless him. yeah. Good times. Yeah, exactly.
So, yeah, so, so...
I'll take myself away and then, you know, it will calm down. And what's happening in that moment is that you're becoming aware that it's building up, you're listening to your body. And when you listen with curiosity, it's like, why is that happening? You're allowed to pause it in the moment rather than it happens and then you go back. But if it does happen and kids will always give us those amazing opportunities, lots of them, for us to put us in overwhelm, just be accountable. Just explain to the child, know, mummy,
this
was happening, you know, never sort of brush it away, but just say, I'm sorry for this happened and be apologetic for your emotions, but be apologetic for your behavior. So they're not going to absorb that thinking it's their fault because kids will, they will naturally go, it's my fault that's happened. And then you disconnect that. So being accountable for your behavior is so crucial to help a little human's mind go, okay, mommy was just having a bad time, you know, that happened and et cetera.
So it's just things like that which I've learned that you know you you if you speak to your child like that that can really help in relation to Reducing those reactions etc and rewiring When you want to do this a really good way of externalizing it and raising into your conscious mind is by noticing When you do have more overwhelm or reactivity or when things are happening and write it down stick on a
post-it
note and you might have one day just do it for one day go yeah that that's the time when that happens that happens you know it's when I'm picking the kids up or I'm before school whatever and then just try and plan that time out a little bit better than what you do and try and alleviate it because when we externalize it and we see it visibly you can go
that's causing the issue. I just need to alleviate that or need some support with that. And then you can try and change those ways, but you have to raise it into your conscious mind because these are reactions in your subconscious that are just happening because they're hardwired, depending on how you were treated. So if you were shouted and yelled at, it might be that that's your response to do that. So how do I stop doing that? Well, being aware of what creates that.
Those are the things that really worked for me and it's hard, it's not easy, but you can rewire it and that's neuroscience. We can actually rewire the way that we think, we process our emotions and feelings.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (22:22)
Yes, just because that's the way that something's always been done doesn't mean that we have to continue doing it that way, especially not when we realize how we've been doing it doesn't work. And quite often our bodies do give us those signals of like, tell us what's going on and those emotions, but getting it out and actually having that visual of, that's what's going on there. Cause we can't fix a problem until we actually know.
Jacqui (22:28)
Nah.
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (22:51)
what the problem is. And so often when we've been running in that maladaptive stress response and our body, we're not listening. We're not giving our body and our system what it needs. And we are in that nervous system overload. We can't clearly hear those signals and we can't do anything about them. actually noticing when what triggers off those reactions.
and getting into that helps us to then respond better. But yeah. Yeah.
Jacqui (23:21)
Yeah.
Yeah. And that takes the work. It's that reflection. It's
like, this happened, okay, that happened then. And that analysis, you know, reflection analysis, what caused the behavior will help you sort of mitigate it in the future. And that's the key thing really. And that's the bit that takes hard work. Otherwise it just keeps happening and happening and happening. So yeah, but you can absolutely change that. You can do that without shadow or doubt.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (23:52)
Yes,
sometimes it's easier to numb down those emotions and we all have our different methods of choice of stuffing those emotions down or numbing out and pretending that the world's not happening or at least that we're not part of it for a bit. But when we do that hard work and get to know ourselves and
Jacqui (24:09)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (24:19)
be who we actually really want to be and who we really are at our essence. It's worth doing the hard work.
But there's going to be those times where we do stuff up and our natural tendency is to bash ourselves up for that.
Jacqui (24:41)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (24:44)
So any tips you'd like to give others for the, yeah, don't bash yourself up. Don't should on yourself as a friend of mine puts it. Cause quite often we do that. Well, I should have done this. I should have done that. Or I should be doing this.
Jacqui (24:56)
Good.
Mm-hmm.
So that's
an interesting one. That's like your inner critic coming up berating yourself and that's your parents. You've got different egos. You've got your child and you've got your parents and that's your parent is the one that inwardly criticises you. So you'll notice. So when that happens, just notice it and go, huh, why am I criticised? Where's that coming from? And it doesn't need to be like that because when we do berate ourselves, when you talk to yourself negatively, it does cause a negative spiral effect.
The brain believes everything you say whether you're joking or not. So it's really important that just to go, I'm human. And that happened, I will do better or I'll try better next time and that kind of mindset. But yeah, if we have a curious mind, I think I was always taught with therapists, just be curious. Don't be judgmental. Don't judge yourself. Don't be harsh on yourself. Just be curious and kind and also say it's completely
understandable. Like if you went through this as a child this is absolutely understandable, it's normal, science is showing how normal this is and that will allow you to have the space to let go and then grow which is I think is absolutely key in all of this because every time you beat yourself up you'll create a negative spiral which is negative energy which lowers your energy which then creates the overwhelm so it then just keeps going. So just go, yep.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (26:30)
Round and round the mulberry
bush.
Jacqui (26:32)
Yeah, just go, I
messed up, right, let it go. Next time I'll try more and then, you know, and that's all you can do is just move forward and keep moving the dial and keep, you know, you've got a bar that's set and it's just raising that bar every single day, right? That's where I'm at now. I want to get better. I want to improve this, whatever it is, and just keep raising the dial.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (26:56)
Yeah. And you've done that a lot with leadership and learning how to trust yourself again. And you coach others now. And a lot of my questions, you've already answered them, which is really cool.
Jacqui (27:11)
You
Sarah Jordan-Ross (27:14)
that process of learning how to trust yourself again and building on that resilience.
Now you've already shared what started you on that journey, but things you ran into along the way that really helped you and what you would suggest others could try.
Jacqui (27:41)
So I think one thing that became apparent is I talked previously about I became a people pleaser and a super achiever.
And I didn't realize at the time why these things were playing out in my life. And it was only when I did the analysis of like, why am I a super achiever? And the super achieving came because of the voids in my life. They were to fill the voids. I felt like I never measured up to anything. I didn't feel I was internally worthy of anything. So if I kept achieving, achieving, achieving, I could go like I'm worth something. And a really interesting question.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (28:01)
Here we go.
Jacqui (28:21)
that once again I was asked by a therapist was who would Jackie be without these external accolades all these achievements and I said I would be no one I'd be invisible.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (28:27)
Mmm.
Jacqui (28:33)
And that's how little I thought of myself. Even though I was, you know, at the time an officer in the Air Force, I still felt that I would be no one without all these achievements. And that was the driving force between, you know, becoming a Heptathlete, a gold medalist Heptathlete in the defence, in the military. It's why I've got four postgraduate degrees, because I kept feeling like I need to keep achieving, keep achieving. And what I've learnt on this journey is that
all
of these achievements are short lived.
you know, you'll get there and once you get there, you're like, right, what's next? And you'll never feel deeply satiated or fulfilled deeply like I'm happy because you're chasing the next big thing. You're chase, chase, chase. Yeah. And that comes from a feeling of a lack of inner worth and worthiness. So if that's you and you're super achieving, it's just recognizing why am I doing that? Now people like to be driven and achieve things, but when you're doing it because there's
lacking inside and you're not fulfilled or your whole heartedness is another expression, you're not completely connected. There's a different reason why you're doing it. So I would offer that that's something that I recognise now in myself and being completely fulfilled is much more rewarding than just chasing accolades. But it's still there. It's still there. I remember having a conversation with Joseph McClendon III and he's got a PhD in neuroscience.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:07)
Yep, he's a great guy.
Jacqui (30:09)
Yeah, I was like, what's your advice? Because I'm like, do do a PhD? Do I do that or not? Or do I just do the thing? And I asked him, do you got a PhD? Do you do that? Because I love neuroscience. And he was just like, just do the thing. I was like, OK, just do the thing. But it's still there. And I still have to contain it. But now, rather than chasing it without questioning it, I'm now asking, is that actually what I want to do? So that's one thing. The other aspect as well is the people pleasing, which I mentioned.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:19)
Yeah.
Jacqui (30:39)
And I remember my very first tour of duty, my boss was a one-star and I worked in his outer office. And clearly I worked very hard for him. And he said when I was leaving on my departure interview, he said, Jackie, if I can give you one bit of advice, it's learn how to say no. And I was like...
Well, and I thought it was a very strangest thing because I was a junior officer, I didn't quite understand. was like, what does he mean by that? And now I know what he means by that very wise, obviously, leader is because I was just constantly giving, giving, giving, giving. And back then I didn't have any children. You know, I just had me and I was a single person and it was easy and I could give my life. And he was like, you've got to have boundaries. And it's really important that you have these boundaries. And as survivors, when our boundaries are violated,
repeatedly by being abused as a child.
you struggle then to hold boundaries, whether that's in personal relationships and professional relationships. And then too much. So, for example, in a workplace environment, can you do this? can you do this? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't, you struggle to go, no, you know. And then I've learned like, yeah, not yet. I haven't got the capacity yet to do that. And yet is a really powerful word to say, yes, I would love to do that, but just not yet. And then you can change it and not feel so bad when you're saying no. And in the military,
Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:09)
Thanks
Jacqui (32:10)
difficult to go no anyway because you're told to do things but you still have a capacity. But you still have a capacity, know, there's only so much one person can do right? So you still have to understand how to hold those boundaries.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:16)
Yes, sir. No, sir. Three bags full, sir.
Jacqui (32:27)
And when you, you know, I was a people pleaser and I'm a recovering people pleaser, I've now learned to hold those boundaries and say no when things aren't good. And that was the same in personal relationships as well. those, sorry. Yeah, yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:42)
Andries can be hard.
Boundaries can be really hard, especially when you've
come from, I put this boundary up, it's not respected, Or you do those things to keep you safe. You learn what you need to do to keep you safe when you're in that survivor mode. And it's really hard to get out of that. I love that.
Jacqui (32:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (33:14)
your boss gave you that advice of learn to say no, realizing that you're going to try and do everything you can to keep everyone around you happy.
Jacqui (33:16)
Yeah.
Huh.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (33:30)
But that's not really possible all of the time. People-pleasing's tricky.
Jacqui (33:35)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (33:39)
And then what ends up happening when you don't learn to say no, or you don't learn to have those boundaries and you're just giving, giving, giving to everybody else because you think that's what you're supposed to do. Like as mums, we're supposed to look after everyone else. And you even said you thought that that taking that hour for yourself was selfish and therefore wrong.
But then you flip the switch and realized actually, no, if I do that and take care of myself so I don't collapse in a screaming heap, I'm actually, they're able to, to show up as the mum that I want to be, as the leader that I want to be. But yeah, you've learned lots and yeah.
Jacqui (34:28)
Absolutely. And own it. Own it.
Own it and go, this is what going to do for me. I'll see you in a bit. And then go, okay. And not feel guilty. Just let that guilt go. It's absolutely fine. And I think, you know, I struggled with that as a young mum. Going, I shouldn't be doing this. I should be doing this. the shudds. The shudds. Shudding all over yourself.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (34:34)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yep.
We do it very well, women in general, I think.
Jacqui (34:56)
Yeah, absolutely,
absolutely.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (35:00)
Yeah. So around here, we're big on talking about things that people don't normally talk about. And we've covered a lot today about breaking generational patterns, about not shooting on yourself and learning those boundaries. From your perspective, what do you think is one conversation on trauma healing leadership that we need to have more of?
Jacqui (35:32)
I think it's people just, there needs to be more education on the ACEs, where that stems from and what the so what of that.
you know, there are 10 ACEs, but obviously what the statistics are showing is that if someone has more than six, their lifespan is likely to reduce by 20 years because of the, yeah. When I read that, was like, wow, you know, it's more than six ACEs, you're more than likely going to end up in prison on substances, addictions, et cetera. And the 20 years lifespan reduction is because of the chronic illnesses
diseases which are created from maladaptive coping strategies, turning to alcoholism, drugs, obviously eating etc etc. And when you see these it breaks my heart and but people you know are afflicted by this and it's just it's just a hidden hidden issue but I've learnt
Since I've been sharing my story since 2016, I chose to write my dissertation. After my dissertation, it gave me the strength to tell my superiors and tell my subordinates as well. And every time that I've shared my story, it's created like a growing shame resilience. So the shame that I used to hold onto and carry in my body, in my mind about what happened, I've let it go completely now. I'm very bulletproof when it comes to
like, shame, it doesn't affect me. And I'm like, how good is it to get to that point? And how do you get there? And the thing is, it's finding the courage to take that step and start sharing, to own your story and not allow your...
to define your future and to say this is who I want to be. Just because that's happened doesn't mean that that is how I want to be. And you know there's a fantastic quote by Gandhi, it's like be the change that you wish to see in the world.
And I could wholeheartedly say that I am the change that I wish to see in the world. But so too can every single survivor be that change. You get to choose. You get to choose your life. You get to educate, understand and then overcome.
And that is the power that each and every human being on this earth possesses within themselves to do that. And they may have been crushed repeatedly, but they can absolutely overcome. And we can defy those statistics. We don't have to live a life of ill health, of unhappiness, and going on to pass on any negativity that was given to us. And so that's the bit.
that I would like to see. And even in the military environment in which I work, trauma-informed leadership is very rare. We do lots of different types of leadership. There is so much training on leadership, but never once is it discussed that actually, if you look at the society and how the military is a microcosm of society, there will be many trauma survivors, many guys who might have been beaten up by parents, etc., fathers, or whatever.
they will be in existence and we need to understand that if someone is not performing as they should be, it's not necessarily because they haven't got the ability. Sometimes it's something that's unresolved in their past that bubbles up to the surface because they experience a challenge in life and that they struggle to deal with it because it triggers them, right? And I had this in 2008, I was a new commanding officer for
kind
of section and when I arrived I was told by my predecessor this particular guy he needs to be gotten rid of from the RAF he's useless he's like showing up late he's shabby he's not performing we just need to get rid of him because he's not good for the RAF and I was like okay
and I brought him in for an interview. I had a chat with him and during that conversation I began to realise, because I could see trauma in someone else because I've been through it myself, I realised there was something more than this, was something in his past that was causing the issue of his performance and a lack of belief in himself and a lack of self-worth.
And stigma for mental health was a big thing back in 2008. It's definitely better now, like since COVID, we talk about it more, but back then it was like we don't talk about mental health. And I said to him, before you started working here, before you were trained on loading and unloading an aircraft, could you have done that? Would you have known what to do? No.
Okay, well, have you had any training on your mind or how your brain works and how your emotions, your thoughts, your emotions, your feelings and how it affects your behavior? Have you had any training on that? No, mom? Well, maybe it's time you did. So I signposted him, I destigmatized it by saying, it's just going to be training, not therapy or counseling, whatever, is where the stigma attaches to, destigmatize it and off he went. And he was one of the lowest ranks at the time.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (40:49)
Yeah.
Jacqui (41:02)
He went off of that and in my book I talk about his story because that conversation where I listened, he felt heard, he felt seen, he was able to go, yeah, me too. And I listened without judgment, but with empathy. And I knew that it wasn't his potential that was stopping him. It was absolutely something that was unresolved. And he went and resolved it. his dad used to beat him up and he used to beat his mum up and he used to protect his mum. So it was a lot of like...
like physical abuse and emotional abuse. And he left home at the age of 16 and then they joined the RAF. And he got in and then he got to a point where I don't know what else to do. That was my goal to leave home and he was stuck, he had nothing else. But then all of the past then started to bubble up. Anyway, now we look back and he's now almost at the pinnacle of his life in the ranks in his career. He's written three books, he's done a master's and he's going to do his PhD.
People had given up on him.
because they thought, you know, and all I saw is he's just a broken child that needs fixing. He needs that support. He needs to love his inner child and he will grow to his and reach his true potential and he has done. And that is leadership and that is trauma informed leadership. So we need more of that. We need to understand that people will never reach their true potential if they're hindered and if their self belief and you know, as shattered and limited by what's happened in their past.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (42:10)
Yeah.
Mm.
Jacqui (42:34)
past, but when they overcome that, they can then grow to be exactly who they're meant to be. And I wish there was more of that in the world because we will have higher performing organizations, know, people who are more fulfilled, understood, and actually they can, they can overcome that and feel more connected in teams. So, yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (42:59)
And sometimes all it takes is that one conversation with somebody who, who sees them and knows where they're at and knows what they are capable of when they overcome those things that are holding them back. So just you having that one conversation with somebody who everyone else had given up on changed his life. And I guess say it changed yours too.
Jacqui (43:12)
Yep.
Yeah, I mean, when I saw him keep getting promoted and so on and so forth and then how happy he was. When I first interviewed him, he didn't share what his dad was doing. He couldn't own that, but then later he shared.
And so he's got to that point in shame resilience, right? And then it's still, and now with his subordinates, because he's a senior, he's doing the same thing. He sees the pain in them and he's able to bring them in and then coach them exactly and lead them how I did. And that's then the ripple effect. And that's the beauty of how we treat people. They go on to treat others exactly like that. That's what we need more of. know, people go through so much. And so I said, never judge a book
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:48)
Yeah.
Jacqui (44:15)
rights cover because you absolutely never know what someone has been through in their child and their past and just being kind will go a long way.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (44:27)
Yeah, kindness doesn't cost anything.
Jacqui (44:30)
No, exactly that.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (44:34)
Now I could stay here and talk to you all day.
because there's a lot to to unpack and you have shared so much great stuff and I am so grateful for all that you've shared today and for your vulnerability and your wisdom and for how you're helping others, how you see other people and then do what you can to to lift them up and help them be the best that they can be. Your story of resilience and leadership.
transformation. know it's going to inspire a lot of people. Your story inspires me to keep doing what I'm doing, but also keep doing the hard work and then encouraging others to do that. Because when we be the change that we want to see or we be the leader that we wish we had, that's when we make a difference.
Jacqui (45:43)
Yeah, no, absolutely. And the fact that you're, Sarah, giving a platform to enable these conversations is just beautiful. It's really, really good because there'll be someone listening out there that will just be like, wow, and it will just...
Sarah Jordan-Ross (45:44)
Keep going.
Jacqui (45:59)
resonate and they'll feel validated and that's the key. know, if you're not going to therapy, where do you get your validation from? Actually, it's conversations like this where they're listening and you're just like, wow, yeah, me too. And then it's like, it's not just me. That's point. It isn't. It's absolutely normal. yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (46:15)
Yeah
Yeah. And that's the thing.
So many of us go through similar experiences and we need to share that. Our stories matter. Our stories make a difference. So thank you so much for sharing yours today. And for those who are listening, if something or anything that we've said today does resonate with you,
Jacqui (46:32)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (46:46)
or if there's somebody in your life that needs to hear this message, please share it with them.
And you can always like and subscribe and leave us a review. What I would really love is for as many people as possible to join the conversation. So whether that's that you send me a message or connect on social media and share your stories or tell me the stories that you would like to hear on here. And if you want to connect with Jackie, read her book.
or learn more about her coaching and her leadership work. There'll be stuff in the show notes, but Jackie, where's the best place to connect with you?
Jacqui (47:35)
So, just Jackie Wilkinson. I'm on Instagram as Jackie Wilkinson. I don't know if you'll share my, the spelling of my name. Yeah, perfect.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (47:45)
Yes, because it is a little
unusual, which is kind of why I like it. Yeah. Yeah.
Jacqui (47:49)
It's short for Jacqueline, so it's Jackie.
And LinkedIn, I'm Jackie Wilkinson. I'm Facebook, Jackie Wilkinson again. But also I've got a page, I've only just set it up recently, but called Turning the Tables on Trauma. It's a Facebook page, it's not a group yet. I think one day I'll create a group, but I haven't got around to doing that yet. I'm still busy doing other bits and pieces. So yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:14)
Yeah, it's not like you've got anything else to do.
Jacqui (48:16)
So one step at a time, right? Just a baby step. But yeah, so absolutely would love to connect and hear from people if they want to reach out. like, absolutely. This is a, think as you mentioned before, my pain is found its purpose. Good old Tony Robbins style. And I genuinely wish that...
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:35)
Yes.
Jacqui (48:43)
The younger version of myself could have been given a book like mine to go this.
Just read this. Because they didn't exist back then, these sorts of books. There was lots of books, but non-written by a survivor for survivors. And even therapists have read the book and said, wow, I've learned some things I didn't realize. So it does go into a lot of depth, but it really helps you to kind of crack the code in relation to your own trauma. Because I went through so many different types, it kind of covers lots of different areas. So yeah, and I just hope it.
benefits someone out there who needs it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (49:24)
I'm sure it will. I think a lot of people will be able to see themselves in your story. I not your whole story but you see parts of themselves. So for those of you listening, go read her book. It's actually really good. I'm only part way through but...
Jacqui (49:46)
Thank you.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (49:48)
Yeah, sorry.
Jacqui (49:48)
And just a note as well on the book, so I
don't make any profit from the book, all profits are donated to charity which is Access Counseling, Supporting Survivors of Sexual Abuse, which I mentioned right at the start, was the very first organisation I turned to when I was 17 that helped change the trajectory of my life and so I'm giving that profit to them and if you buy a book you're donating to charity and I'm very grateful for that.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (50:19)
Like we needed anything more to consider that you were really a quite incredible kind of person. It's another really good reason to go read her book because then you can help others as well. So until next time, take care of yourselves, take care of each other and remember your past does not have to define you. It's how you rise from it that does.
And if you've got anything from our chat today, it's that you can turn your trauma into triumph. It does not have to define you.
how you are able to, as Jackie puts it, turn the tables on that trauma and live the life that you really meant to live. So please keep sharing those stories and we'll see you next time on Tabo