What happens when three women show up mid-rebuild, still messy, and totally unfiltered? You get this sacred conversation. In this week’s episode of Taboo Talk, Sarah sits down with powerhouse voices Jacqui Wilkinson and Nicole Cowley to explore what it means to burn it all down—and begin again. From the raw truth of divorce and identity loss, to rage, regulation, faith, and the quiet power of starting over, this episode is an emotional ride and a deep exhale. It’s not about polished answers—it’s about real talk from the middle of the storm.
“You don’t need to be healed to be helpful—you just need to be honest.” — Sarah Jordan-Ross
“Everything fell apart—and that’s where I finally started listening to myself.” — Nicole Cowley
“I’m not angry—I’m activated. And I’m allowed to be.” — Jacqui Wilkinson
This episode isn’t just a conversation—it’s a permission slip.
💬 Send it to a friend who’s mid-rebuild and needs to know she’s not alone.
🎧 Subscribe, rate, and leave a review if this episode moved something in you.
🌕 Tag @tabootalkwithsarah on socials and share your biggest aha—we’d love to hear.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (00:01) And welcome back to Taboo Talk with Sarah, the podcast where we break the silence, share the stories that often go unspoken, and remind each other that we're not alone. Now, I'm really excited for today's episode. I've had the privilege of interviewing both these amazing ladies before, and every time their honesty, wisdom, and presence left a mark on my heart. But today they're here together. So,
Nicole Cowley (00:27)
Thank
Sarah Jordan-Ross (00:27)
I have more
than one friend to play with which is really cool.
Now, Nicole Cowley and Jackie Wilkinson and the lovely Ashley Borromeo was going to be joining us as well but she's doing the mum thing so we'll just muddle on through without her and have lots of fun but we will miss her. these three women, they lead and live with grace and grit. They know what it means to rebuild.
to move through challenge and to come home to themselves again. And they help others to do the same. So we're going to talk about healing, identity, motherhood, and how the body holds truth before the mind can catch up. So whether you're driving, folding washing, stealing a few quiet moments, I hope this feels like a deep exhale. So welcome, welcome, welcome. I am so glad you're both here. So.
Nicole Cowley (01:14)
Okay.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (01:16)
I wanted to start with this idea of choreographing your life, which is a thing that the two of you did with Ashley a little while ago and that's what got me thinking. So you've both moved through really big transitions and identity shifts and big changes in your lives. So I'll start with Jackie. What did that first step look like when you started reimagining your life?
Jacqui Wilkinson (01:16)
Thank you, guys.
The first step, think it was the breakdown that was the first step. I had no choice, in all honesty. I was down on my knees because I was suffering a breakdown. It when my father passed away and he was my abuser. And I had to really do some deep introspection to understand who I was, what had happened, and why I was still holding the negative emotions inside of me.
And through this three month period, I actually rebounded and I like found the light. And that was through a lot of work of like deeper inner self work, understanding what my core beliefs were.
and what limiting beliefs I held about myself and who I was and that I actually realized I had the power to shift and change those beliefs. I thought beliefs were long held things you had forever and you couldn't change but actually you can and when you start showing yourself first-hand evidence of the opposite of what your belief is you can empower yourself to change those beliefs because your beliefs shape your thoughts.
Nicole Cowley (02:18)
Thank
Jacqui Wilkinson (02:39)
your feelings, your emotions, but also your behaviors. And when we understand how interlinked all of this is, and it's all invisible, right? It all happens inside of our minds. We actually grow and empower. And for me, that was the huge shift of understanding us as human beings and how we can actually empower ourselves. So yeah, it was a rock bottom.
that I rose and I talk about in my book, rising from the ashes and how you get to transform. it was with his death, the ashes, the cremation that I then rose to become who I really wanted to be by letting go of who I wasn't in my past. So that was my big shift.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (03:19)
And Nicole, what about you?
Nicole Cowley (03:21)
Yeah, you know, for me, guess I very, what Jackie said last time, it comes from a place I have to. And, and I was in a similar, not the same scenario, but from a place that I had to. And it was the end of my marriage where I had been a stay at home mom and had been home with my children for over eight years. And then had a marriage kind of taken away at an overnight almost. And
and having to rebuild from that place. And that was really, you know, a time where I had to start to really get to know me, me again, and what was possible for me. And I had to work through a lot, like Jackie was saying, a lot of limiting beliefs as to what I could do, what was possible. I had to rebuild financially. I had to rebuild emotionally. And I had to see something greater.
than where I was at the time. And that was really challenging. My children were only at the time four and seven. And I remember feeling that whole weight on my shoulders of taking care of a home, taking care of our finances, starting school over. went and learned a whole bunch of new modalities just to create a new life for me and the kids. And so it was a time of rebuilding.
But what I did learn during that time is how incredibly resilient we are and how strong we are and what is possible when we start to learn about the mind, learn about our bodies, learn about our faculties that can really help us live a life that is full of possibility instead of limitations.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (05:00)
I when you open yourself up to those possibilities and what can be and let go of what has been, quite often we talk about the beginning and the end of stories, but the truth is most of the good stuff happens in the middle, in that messy, uncertain, unglamorous middle.
Nicole Cowley (05:08)
Mmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (05:20)
And you guys are both built up from that rock bottom space. So Nicole, what did rebuilding actually look like for you? As you said, you went and did a whole bunch of new modalities and had to find that whole new way of thinking and being. And you make it sound easy, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't.
Nicole Cowley (05:30)
Hmm.
Yeah, if I
it was not easy. I will tell you it was not. I was really in a place of a ton of self-doubt as to what was possible. And when I look back at rebuilding, you know, I'm really grateful. I had a father who really always emphasized that I could do whatever I put my mind to. And I remember that being a whisper within me because there was everything in me saying I can't. And I had this one little whisper.
that was in there that you can. And I remember being like, that was kind of the, the get me out of bed in the morning and say, let's go. And, and I also want to really emphasize that my children were a big instigation, instigated a lot of that resilience as I would look at them. And I knew that they needed me to stand higher than I've stood before that I knew they need to see what was possible through me instead of me.
collapsing and not being there. had to show them what was possible. because I, you know, I felt super responsible for their lives. They don't, they don't ask for these things. That's one thing I think about with children is they, they come in into this world so beautiful and pure and they don't ask for these circumstances yet they happen. So rebuilding for me was just, you know, it was starting to reach out to people. That was one of them reach out and ask how, like I started with a direct marketing company through a friend.
And she started to lift me up there. The community in that drug marketing company started to lift me up from there. And I, you know, I was starting with pretty much zero confidence, but every single time I made one move and then another move, I started to come back to myself and started to realize that I could make a difference, that I could make a living for us, that I could make a difference in other people's lives. And that was kind of the snowball. And I really truly believe that is when you first get a little bit of confidence again.
and you start to feel like that is possible, that your mind starts to open up. And that's when I started to really dive into like, would I really love to do? What would I really love to do? And from there, obviously there was lots of things that came, personal trainer, health coach, life coach, and then hypnotherapist. But I really realized that each step, like you said, the messy middle, each step was like,
building the confidence again, taking exams, trying to figure out whether I could pass these exams. I was in my early 40s and I was like, my gosh, I'm in these classes sometimes with people half my age. And I remember just thinking, can I do this? So to explain that all is kind of challenging to put words to it, but I will say that just taking one step after another, after another, you start to build your life again. And that messy middle.
becomes your greatest achievement really actually is that messy middle because that's when you really find out who you are.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:28)
And I am so glad that you did find out who you are and that now you share that with the world.
Nicole Cowley (08:34)
Thank you.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:35)
And then Jackie for you.
When was it you realised that you couldn't go back to who you'd been before? So you had your breakdown, you built back up.
And then what led on from there?
Jacqui Wilkinson (08:47)
It's a really great question. what actually is, what makes you change or why do want to change? And we all have to want to change in order to change, right? So what's the want, what's the driving factor? And for me, I chose to break every single generational cycle of abuse for the sake of my children, exactly what Nicole said. When you have children and you suddenly feel this unconditional love and I never experienced it as a child, but I certainly experienced it as a mother.
It was even before whilst my child was growing in my tummy, I made a promise to myself that I would figure it all out, so that I would not pass any of the trauma onto them. And I kept the promise and I'm really proud that the way that I parent is conscious parenting and I just chose to make a decision that I will be the absolute opposite of the parents that I was given.
And we can all learn from that. So I remember my therapist once saying, well, because I said, I think I'm to be an awful mother. How could I be possibly a good mother? And she goes, well, you know exactly how not to be, which is the perfect place to start. And I was like, huh.
What great advice. And so that's what I chose to do. I said, well, I know how not to be. So I went and researched, you I joined, you know, in the 20s when COVID happened, I joined a positive parenting community and I started listening to master classes so I could learn how to speak to a child, which is different to speak in the professional environment and how do you speak to children so they can understand and listen. And I started growing this awareness and knowledge about how not to be, learning about the developmental stages of each child
Sarah Jordan-Ross (09:56)
Yeah.
Jacqui Wilkinson (10:23)
and how they grow up and what they need to feel loved and worthy, as opposed to the voids that happened in my life, which were the loneliness, the not feeling worthy, the feeling unloved. So I tried my best just to learn and educate myself to do everything, and it was for their sake. And in doing that for them, I grew as an individual, I grew as a mummy, I grew as a wife, but I also learned that things like self-care
Self-care is so important and so powerful because when you learn to give to yourself as well You know by for me and probably Nicole, you know doing exercise. We love doing my fears It's my time and it actually makes me stronger and it makes me become a better mummy To my children a better wife to my husband and better co-worker. It just that self-love is really really important so all of these things came about from learning how to love and
a good role model as a mother. But that was my why, that was my purpose and it's the driving force behind everything and the catalyst for change.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (11:22)
Yeah.
And that looking after yourself as a mum is huge because if you're not looking after you, can't look after them and the last thing they need is for you to collapse in a screaming hate because you haven't been taking care of yourself. And one thing I admire about both of you is how connected you are to your bodies and how you listen to those signals that your body is giving you. So
What's one thing your body has taught you about grace and about giving yourself that grace and that space to take care of yourselves?
We'll start with Nicole.
Nicole Cowley (12:05)
I was like, who do you Well, you know what? When I think about my body and the energy I have and the life I want to live, every single day I have to check in with myself. I running too, like am I doing too much? Am I not doing enough? Like, what am I doing? And I've gotten really a lot better at this.
Jacqui Wilkinson (12:06)
Good.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (12:07)
Yeah.
Nicole Cowley (12:28)
some in the past years and years and years ago would run myself down and would do it from a different place. It was usually from a place of lack versus a place of love. And so it was usually if I was working, I was working out really hard sometimes years and years and years ago. And it was so interesting because it was a different intention. My intention often was from not being enough. And so I would try to move to be enough. And what has really changed in me over the last
probably like 15 years is now I move because I am enough. I move because I want to live a better life. I move because I want to have energy, but I also rest a lot too. Now I'm learning to rest. I'm learning to take naps if I need to take a nap. You know, I'm figuring out the balance of it all. In fact, I designed programs years ago, exercise programs that were only 30 minutes long because I really wanted to
move my body, but not to the point of exhaustion. I wanted to move it in a way that I loved it. And I knew in 30 minutes I could get a lot of energy, feel really strong, but not feel like I've done way too much. And so it's been an evolution of that. But what I do know too is that I have such a dream to live a beautiful life with my kids and myself and...
And I know that mobility and energy and strength is so important. I also know from my own mind that feeling strong on the inside translates completely to my thoughts up here, right? It's completely to my mind thoughts because when I am not feeling great in my body, it's really hard to have those positive thoughts about what I want to do in my day, what I want to do in my life. But when I'm feeling strong and energetic in my body, I walk in a room differently.
I talk differently, I sit differently, I have a different energy with my kids, I have a different sense of confidence. And it's just like I'm in reference for our bodies. They're beautiful miracles. I think they are amazing. Like every night we sleep, our hearts still beats, our lungs work, our systems are going without asking for anything from us. know, our bodies just do their thing. And I always think what a miracle they are. So it's my responsibility.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (14:27)
I am.
up.
Nicole Cowley (14:43)
to take care of it, to do what I can, because I know that there are a vehicle to help us experience life to the most beautiful degree. And so that is my thought on our bodies, but it's changed over time. And I have to say that for sure. I used to be not in a place of reverence, I'd be in a place of not enough. And I'm really in a place of reverence now.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (15:03)
is great to see and it does make a huge difference. Our bodies are always telling us what's going on on that underlying level. They give us little hints and quite often we do the either don't know what it is that our body is trying to tell us or the yep I know exactly what it's trying to tell me and I'll take care of it later and later has a bad habit of always being later.
So Jackie, what's one thing you've learned about how your body is speaking to you now? And do you two respond differently to how you once did?
Jacqui Wilkinson (15:34)
Yes and no. So I've always done exercise, I've always been into competitive sports, was a heptathlete.
So yeah, I've always done sports, physical exercise, and competed at quite a high level in athletics as a heptathlete. And I always found that the
That was my go-to. Whenever I was feeling low, was always exercise that I turned to and the competitive side of it and that community really helped me. But how it changed my body is I used to find that it gave me energy that I needed to actually achieve what I needed to achieve. And I really found the power in what it did for my body. is exactly what Nicole was saying. It made me feel more confident, so much more confident in what I was doing, how I was showing up in the world. And that's really
really important. But equally, just as Nicole was saying as well, that rejuvenation, rest, recovery is so important and I never used to give myself enough rest. I would just...
keep training and sometimes I think I would overtrain which caused a few injuries that I probably could have avoided had I just rested. But I always thought, no, I need to keep going, I need to keep going. And I was more of a human doing instead of a human being. And I learned, it's true, just keep going, Jackie, just keep going, keep going, you'll be fine. And actually your body needs that rejuvenation. The more and more I learn about biohacking and...
you know, how you get longevity and quality of life is all about you've got to learn to rest, recuperate, re-energize because your body exactly what Nicole was saying. What it does when you're sleeping, your unconscious mind, unconscious body, it just empowers you. So I've learned so much more now. I wish I'd known it earlier when I was younger, because I would have just said, yeah, it's okay to rest. I remember my coach saying to me once, are you resting before competition day? was like, no, no, no, I've just
done this the day before, like a big weight session, because that's not going to help your 400 meter hurdles race. And it didn't. He was right. I thought I'd be okay. So it's just like rest before is, you know, rest is always really important. And the problem I see is that many people think that resting is being lazy.
So they keep themselves busy to prove that they're not lazy, but it's like, no, no, no, no, we need to rest as human beings. It's really important. And I think nowadays with so much going on in the world, we are constantly like reacting and responding. It's really important to take those time outs just to rest and recoup away from tech as well. It's really important.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (18:06)
Yes, because the body needs that recovery time. Hey, someone say on the seventh day he rested. There's a reason for that. We all need that recovery time and that's the thing. We can't all just keep going and keep pushing through, but we all know that now that we're that little bit older and wiser, but like you, I wish I had a known it when I was 20.
Jacqui Wilkinson (18:08)
Yeah.
Yes, yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (18:30)
Now, you are both amazing mentors in different ways. For women, for mothers, for business owners. Jackie, you're in the military, so that's a whole extra level of leadership there. But it's not about that loud performance to be seen thing. It's steady and honest. And you show up.
for people in amazing ways. So what does mentorship mean to you these days? we'll start with Jackie. has how you lead changed over time?
Jacqui Wilkinson (19:03)
Yeah, so a mentor is a bit like you've walked the path of someone already, so you can mentor them through it. And it's different to being a coach. And I find that being a mentor is just allowing someone who you're mentoring to stand on your shoulders, you know, that great expression, like stand on the shoulder of giants. I think it's Isaac Newton. You know, that is so true and so powerful. And a mentor, you get to do that.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (19:22)
Yep.
Jacqui Wilkinson (19:30)
And when you can empathize with someone and show them kind of the shortcut, the quicker route to achieving success, you know, which is like the more direct route as opposed to the way you navigated your own life, that's what mentorship is all about.
And I've found that it's really empowering to do that when you are more vulnerable and more honest with those that you're mentoring. And I've discovered that even with, you know, being a victor's mindset of wearing military uniform.
When you just show up as you are and you lead with that honesty and vulnerability and share part of your story, especially if someone's struggling, you help them by that mirroring and those mirror neurons and they can then see that actually it's okay to be vulnerable because we're all human beings and sometimes by sharing you help them to give them permission that they can share and that they can then...
you know, turn for help and support if they need it. And that's what I mentoring is all about is just to give them, you know, reaching out your hand and offering help in times of, you know, struggle, but also allowing them to see their own potential. Cause sometimes when we have those limiting self beliefs, we don't think that we're good enough to reach that level. We think we're here and you get stuck there. But with a mentor, you can kind of go, no, that's just what you believe at the moment, but that can shift
change and that's what mentoring is all about it's actually helping them to break through that ceiling to reach their own true potential by smashing their own limiting self-beliefs and I really think that's what mentoring is all about and I believe that I lead like that now I lead someone or mentor someone and she's doing a level seven coaching course and I met her about a year ago and she was like I don't think I'm good enough to do level seven should I just do level five and I was like you're more
than good in that and she decided to do level seven because I had this conversation with her I smashed through some of her self beliefs and she's almost finished level seven coaching I said I've told you and she said I wouldn't have done that if it weren't for you and I was like this is what it's all about it's actually just seeing the potential in someone and then holding up a mirror and going can you not see it yet and doing that and when you see that change in them that is just so empowering and beautiful
Sarah Jordan-Ross (21:47)
that's the thing we quite often, we see it in other people, but we don't always see it in ourselves. So having somebody hold that mirror up to you is an incredible gift. It helps people to see what is possible. I know that motherhood changed how Jackie does things. Nicole, did it change how you lead and mentor people?
Nicole Cowley (22:08)
Yeah, motherhood, that's such a good reflection on that. I think it really has changed the way I mentor people. I think about my kids all the time and I think about how I am showing up and I think about like what Jackie was talking about before, you know, when we are doing this work, you start to learn a lot about yourself, but you start to learn a lot about your children and the way they think and the way they do things.
I realized that I'm always practicing mentorship in my home before I'm even doing it with my clients. Am I showing up in a way that I would love to be able to be an example or I would love to have them have a belief in what is possible because I truly don't believe I can be telling them what to do and do the things if I'm not doing it myself.
And I think that is one thing I really realized that, I think when I look at parenting now, I see it at kind of maybe many years ago, it was like, just do what I say, do what I do, or not do what I do, do what I say, but I don't have to be the person necessarily, but do what I say, just do what I say. And I really think I'm coming from a different place now is like, I gotta do what I'm actually putting out there. If I'm asking them to take chances, if I'm asking them to be responsible, if I'm asking them to,
you know, do certain things. It's a really good mirror for me all the time is, am I doing it? And you know what's been amazing actually is that the more I speak to my children in this way and give them, you know, really see them and recognize what they are doing and, you know, giving them accolades for what they do and all of those things and talking positive talk with them and what is possible.
they will catch me in my stories sometimes when I get down, they'll be like, one of the first things they'll say is, but mom, you said this. And I'm like, yes, I did. Yes, I did. And it's so amazing now because they will catch me in those stories or they will catch me in things that I thought I had got past. And then I'll be like, did I get past? I did not get past this. And it's humbling. It's super humbling. But what I love too is that I really,
I apologize more often to them in a way of so that they can see that I don't have to always be right and they have a way of empowering me. It's such an empowering feeling to feel like they are seen, feel like they are heard. That to me is such a beautiful thing because they are feeling like they make a difference. When Jackie was talking about conscious parenting, I read that book so many years ago about conscious parenting.
And it was such a good book because I realized, you we weren't always giving them credit for the amount that they know and the things that they can do. Their minds are so powerful. And in fact, sometimes their minds are so beautiful because they haven't been tainted with so many stories of what is not possible. They're like so in the possible. so when you asked that, that was a long answer to that. But what I truly believe is that
It starts in my home. It starts with me practicing there and making sure that these beautiful, beautiful little humans that I brought into this world are respected, loved, and can do the things they need to do going forward. And if I can practice here and help here, then I know I can help in other places too.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (25:29)
I think quite often our children are our best teachers. Okay, sometimes it might be lessons we didn't really want to learn, they show us what's possible because yeah, they haven't, they haven't figured out yet what isn't. And that's a really great thing. And yeah, when we give them permission to, to grow and to change, it's a great thing.
Nicole Cowley (25:33)
you
Sarah Jordan-Ross (25:50)
quite often.
We do do that, just do what I say. We forget that if we're gonna talk the talk, we need to walk the walk. And that is something that both of you do really well. And I will admit, because I still have little kids. I'm still a bit of a work in progress on that, but I think all of us are when it comes to motherhood and to figuring out who we are when we go through big transitions.
in life. So identity is one of those really layered things and when we go through that big transformation we sometimes grieve who we were before it.
Nicole Cowley (26:14)
Thanks.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (26:24)
or we get to a point where that who we were doesn't fit anymore or what we're so used to doing doesn't fit in our lives anymore.
on how we see ourselves changes as we grow and heal and learn more about ourselves. So, Daki, I know you went through a bit of an identity shift as well with all of the things that you went through and you talk about them a little bit in your book. But how did you navigate that shift that came with the healing and growth that you went through?
Jacqui Wilkinson (26:55)
Just before I do, just before I answer that question, I want to go back to what Nicole said, because I've written something down and I have to share this story. Sorry, I'll do it. So yeah, what Nicole said just really resonated with me about that you learn from your children and a little story popped into my head. My daughter's six.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (27:03)
No, that's perfect.
Jacqui Wilkinson (27:13)
And I remember having this conversation with her previously saying that we talked about the inner critic. And I was asking my son, was like, can you hear a voice in your head? it say negative things? And I'm just trying to understand, just explain to them the inner critic. And my son was like, no. And then eventually we got around to, yeah, yeah, when I think this, that's the inner critic, that's what we're talking about. So I said to my children, maybe we should name the inner critic. And Regan, my daughter, named her inner critic.
Whisper. Yeah. And I was like, oh, okay, that's cool. So she named her in a critic. Anyway, fast forward a few days and having a conversation with my husband about doing this 100 kilometer bike ride. And I'm saying, well, I'm not sure whether I can do it. And you know, when I'd be able to do it's four hours. And then Regan sat over on the sofa, mommy, is that Whisper talking to you?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (28:00)
Ha
Jacqui Wilkinson (28:01)
My six year old daughter was just like, that's really critic, pinned out of her mind. And I was like, this is amazing. So I just wanted to share that story. How amazing is that, that you know, there's that little self-doubt nugget that was talking to me, my daughter overheard it she mirrored it back to me. So I just wanted to share that and they are the best teachers because it's just beauty and simplicity that comes out and is shared and it's magical when it happens, right? So.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (28:09)
of the mouths of babes.
Jacqui Wilkinson (28:29)
And I forgot your question, Sarah. So you might need to repeat it because I just had to share that. Identity is right. Identity wasn't. Well, wasn't right.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (28:33)
That's okay.
Yeah, it's okay, I forgot too.
Jacqui Wilkinson (28:39)
my identity shift. So I think when I first joined the military 20 years ago, I had to identify with something that was bigger and grander than myself. And the military is a meritocracy organization where you are rewarded on things that you do for merit. And I gave up part of my identity to transform and be part of the identity of the military. And that's what happened to me. And then I discovered seven years
Sarah Jordan-Ross (28:41)
Yes.
Jacqui Wilkinson (29:06)
on that the two, the self, the Jackie not in uniform and the Jackie in uniform started to split and there was a splitting of the selves and this can happen actually when you go through trauma you can't become two individuals and I was learning that I had to be who I was meant to be, who I'm supposed to be authentically and you know vulnerable and be you know share my story rather than just thinking I have to be the strong
person in uniform that does not show weakness, does not show cracks, because if I do, I will not be respected as a leader. I will not be seen to be good enough. And all of these negative things that are in my mind. And actually what I learned is that the splitting of the cells can actually really be damaging for your mindset. So then I had to understand that I've got to reform and be the person I wanted to be. And that was the reforming of my identity. And then the cells became one. And that was the most
powerful thing that you can do is you can be who you want to be irrespective of what organization, where you're working, you don't need to conform and I'm actually quite a non-conformist when I think about it. I really am, yeah I am and I was like, I am a non-conformist but I was conforming and kept conforming and etc etc and that's not that's not who I am so I think it's really important you know understanding who you are.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:12)
No, really?
Jacqui Wilkinson (30:27)
and why you are the way you are and knowing what your values are so you start living by your values and not someone else's because the military has its own values which I thoroughly respect but I've also got my values and having to work with both of them is really important but living by my own values is truly empowering and I think that when everyone knows what your values are and when you're not living by them you can be misaligned and they say that when you're misaligned you you can have
know, ill health, it can be that damaging to your psyche. So it's really important to understand your identity, your character, who you want to be, who you want to show up in the world. That's also really important.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (31:08)
And showing up as who you really are. Not necessarily just fitting into other people's expectations of who you are if that isn't who you are anymore. yeah, being split, being two different people depending on who you are, who you're with or where you're at, it's not healthy long term because then you can sometimes even forget who you...
Jacqui Wilkinson (31:11)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (31:31)
really are and something Nicole does in her work is bringing people back to who they really are and how they really want to show up.
And I'm guessing that that came from your own experience of needing to do that. So you want to unpack that a little bit for us?
Nicole Cowley (31:50)
Sure, yeah, you know, when Jackie was talking about, you know, that she's really like a non-conformist, I think that was the other way. I think I was like a chameleon and I like go into any social circle and just like be what they needed me to be. I, in fact, I think I used to like be like, that's like one of my superpowers. I could just be a chameleon. And I'm like, that is actually not great because I never knew who I was. Like I couldn't just show up as I was and be accepted.
who I was, could blend really easily. And I know that that came from a lot of people pleasing and, you know, really, I think a lot of women that I deal with too are high achievers and, you know, had built their identity on their accolades, like being...
controlled certain things like you did well in school, you did well in your extracurricular activities and that's how they started to get to know themselves so that as long as they were always getting it from the outside in, they could feel full. And I have definitely been in that position. so, you know, trying to figure out your own way and learning about who you are and then being able to voice it, be able to be it.
is sometimes a really vulnerable thing because if you've for so long built yourself up under a disguise of, know, I'm this with them and I'm this with that, when you start to just be yourself, you can be really scared of like losing people or, you know, that disconnection of love. Like I got love from this. I, as long as I was doing the thing that I was supposed to do, I got love. And so one thing I love to do is
Because in that place though, when you're always doing the things for others to get the love and do the things, there is that disconnect that we were just talking about that I'm not truly living the way I am. So I'm hiding. I'm hiding all the time. I'm not, I'm small. I feel like if I'm not enough, it doesn't work. And so bringing people back to who they truly are is my favorite thing because when we can love and accept ourselves fully,
then our gifts come out to the fullest, then our like who we are shines bright because I believe each person that comes into this world has their own unique, beautiful qualities that are needed in this world. And until you find you again, it's really hard to have those authentic relationships. It's hard to build connection actually because it's never a true connection. It's never them really loving you for who you really are.
But when you're really you and you don't apologize for it and you can show up in your in your most authentic place, it's one of the most freeing and empowering feelings ever because you're not performing anymore. You're just being. And so I that is something that I've had to really work through for me for sure, because there was always that fear of if I show up fully as being will I still be accepted?
And I used to always be like, I'm a good girl. Like inside, I gotta be the good girl. The good girl. And being the, if I'm not, will I not be liked? And so it has been a bit of a journey for me on that one. But this is what I do know now is that when you do step into it, you feel so much relief. So much relief.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (34:51)
you
But, yeah, that, when we figure out who we really are and stop trying to fit into the nice, neat little boxes that other people or other experiences would like to put us in, it shifts how we do things and how we show up.
But, it's question for both of you.
Did you have to give yourself permission to show up and live differently? Because sometimes we look for that from somebody else, but quite often the reality is that we have to give it to ourselves.
Nicole, did you have to give yourself permission to stop being the good girl and just be who you really are?
Nicole Cowley (35:52)
Yeah, I did, but it took me getting rid of some of the stories of what it would be like to do that. And I had to kind of reprogram a lot of the things that I felt so deep inside on how that would look. But permission, it's so interesting because I used to look for permission from everybody else. Like, can I rest? Can I be this? Can I do that? Even like permission.
I remember even when investing in myself, I would ask everybody else, do you think it's okay if I spend this money? Do you think it's okay if I do the things? And eventually, one of my, like I remember one of my most powerful moments was when I decided I was investing in myself without asking anybody else. Like just like this was my decision. And that was really a moment in time where I was like, wow, I actually am stepping into that belief that I,
I didn't have to ask everybody. I didn't have to make sure that it was all okay. I realized that I mattered. I could make the decisions for myself. That was a practice. I had to practice doing that. had to practice giving myself permission. I had to practice taking the next step and really practicing that I do matter, that I can do that. So yes, permission. I love, I love lots of times is even when I'm working with clients is I'm like,
permission. You have permission to rest. But you have to give it to yourself too, right? You have to give yourself because you do matter and what you love matters.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (37:21)
Jackie, what about you when you brought those two separate parts of yourself back together where you stopped just being the military Jackie who had it all together and was strong and just showed up that way to the one who admits that yes, she is very strong, but part of what makes her so strong is that vulnerability and the ability to share that everything isn't
perfect and that you don't always have it all together and you don't always know all of the answers.
Jacqui Wilkinson (37:50)
Yeah, so I think what the way I was built and constructed, I talk about in my book called the lost child role. So I adopted a role in my childhood and that was to in such a dysfunctional home upbringing, it was to balance the equilibrium, so all the negativity. So if I sat on the fence,
and just didn't do any confrontations or argue or kept the peace, I could balance out the negativity in my family. So you growing up sitting on the fence, which means that when someone says something like, yeah, okay, I'll do that, I'll do that, you agree with them, and this is the people please, the syndrome that comes about as an adult. And I remember my very first job.
I was working for a one-star, so quite a high-level military officer, he's a naval officer. And at the end of my interview when I was leaving, when I was posted, he said, Jackie, I give you one word of recommendation. And I was like, yes, sir. And he goes, learn how to say no. And I was like, what?
He was learning how to say no. And what he saw in me was that I would just do everything. I was just always people pleasing. was, know, yes sir, do this, whatever, bending over backwards. And this, what this ends up doing is it leads to burnout in our roles. It leads to burnout. You know, if we're constantly people pleasing and making sure that everyone else is okay and doing all right, we end up suffering ourselves. And he gave me that advice a long time ago. I didn't understand it. And then now I do, I'm like, huh, such a wise man.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (39:23)
You
Jacqui Wilkinson (39:24)
And I didn't understand it as a 25 year old young officer, but now I do. And actually it's really important to understand why are we people pleasing? Why do we take on these roles and where does it come from? What's the root cause of that? Because when we truly understand this is why we are the way we are, it gives us that strength to make those changes to go, it's okay to say no, it's okay to hold my boundaries and say, I'll learn how to say no.
not yet, there's a great, you the words like, yeah, I'm not available yet, or can you help me reprioritize my workload so that I can get these done if you want me to do this? It's just learning and understanding all of that, which means that we can then hold our boundaries and hold our power and be strong in ourselves. So I think all of those aspects are really important when we're trying to understand who we are, the way things.
I heard a bit of who we are and how we want to be. So I did that better.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (40:25)
Yes, it's interesting that for such a little word, can be so very hard to say, but I remember once getting the advice that, like, similar to your officer saying, learn to say no. No is a complete sentence. You don't have to justify it. You don't have to go into the all the nitty gritty of it. You can just say no.
Jacqui Wilkinson (40:31)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Without guilt, that's the key. No.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (40:50)
Yes. ⁓
No, I'm not doing
that because I don't want to and no, I'm not going to feel bad about it. But it takes a lot to get to that point where you can actually do that. Especially when you've perhaps decades of the people pleasing and showing up how you're expected to. Because quite often we forget who we are amongst all of the things that we do.
Jacqui Wilkinson (40:58)
Yeah, exactly.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (41:14)
So one of my signature questions is, what's the conversation that we should be having but we aren't? And Jackie, I'll start with you, just because you answered last.
Jacqui Wilkinson (41:26)
What's the conversation that we should be having that we aren't? Really good question. We're having so many conversations these days. think, I want to go down the line that we can truly heal ourselves and not just with our mindset but physically as well. You hear this epidemic of chronic diseases around the world and the more and
Sarah Jordan-Ross (41:33)
Yeah, which is great.
Jacqui Wilkinson (41:51)
that I do, the more and more I read, we can actually reverse so many health challenges by the way that we...
exercise, we move our bodies, the what we eat, understanding what we eat and how we eat and when we eat. All of these science-backed evidence is showing that we can reverse so much. And the conversation is you need to open your eyes and take accountability for what you do in your life. You get given one body, one chance, one life, and you can increase your longevity or you can decrease it. And it's your choice. We shouldn't blame things
happened to us we get dealt a raw hand at times in life but it's our choice of how we choose to deal with what we're dealt with and we can be accountable and responsible for our own behaviors what we do and how we show up to the world and everything to do with our body you know your body's like it's like a car that you can't trade in you get one
You've got to MOT it, you've got to look after it, you've to service it all the time consistently. You can't go and buy a new one. You can't trade it in. It's really important. And we need to open our eyes to how amazing your body is. It will heal itself if you allow it and you give it the right tools. So that's the conversation that we need to be opening our eyes to more. And it's so empowering when you get to that place of like, I can actually increase my years and have a better quality of life if I choose to. Yes.
You can. That is a conversation that I think we need to be having more.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:25)
Yep, I agree. And I know the more I've been in health and wellbeing history for 25 years now, and the more I learn and read about the body, the more I realize I don't know that much because what we know and what we do changes as we get more knowledge. But we have places in the world, the blue zones, where people are living healthily into their 90s, even their hundreds.
Jacqui Wilkinson (43:40)
Yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:55)
That shouldn't be the exception, that should be the norm. And physically it is possible, but it's that we don't take care of our bodies the way that they need to, or we don't listen to the signals that our body gives us.
and we're constantly bombarded by different chemicals, different environment factors. Our body responds exactly the same way to a psychological or emotional threat as it does to a physical one. So your body gets the, there's a saber-toothed tiger trying to eat me.
and where it used to be that, yep, your nervous system would kick in to fight that threat. You'd fight it or run away from it. And then once the danger was gone, you were back in your cave. Your nervous system would calm down. One of my lecturers used to refer to it as being the coffee cognac state, as being that opposite of the fight and flight in that.
You've had a nice meal, you're sitting back, you're all nice and relaxed and everything's right in your world. And our nervous system is actually supposed to be in that state far more than it is in the fight or flight state. But us silly humans, we seem to have flipped that switch and we're spending a lot more time in that chronic fight and flight and that's why we're running into so many problems.
One easy example, when the body's in fight or flight, all of the blood from your digestive system gets diverted to your muscles so that you can fight that threat and run away from it. What do think that's doing to our digestive systems long term? And a lot of the problems that we're seeing and the solution to them is getting our gut microbiome right. A lot of the problems that we are seeing is because of the effects.
of our lifestyles on our digestive systems.
So yes, that's definitely a conversation we need to have more of of how can we look after ourselves better?
Jacqui Wilkinson (45:39)
Yeah, microbiome definitely will not be researched recently.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (45:40)
Nicole, what do you think we need to be talking about?
Sorry, Jackie.
Nicole Cowley (45:43)
Well,
I agree so deeply with both of you on that conversation for sure. But I think the other conversation we need to have, and they're completely connected, is learning more about our thoughts, the mind, and the connection to the body. So learning more about emotional intelligence and those kind of things. think children, I really wish.
this would come into the school system at an early level so that they can start to understand their strength they have to decide who they are, what they're doing, all of that from a very young age to really understand what is trapping them in certain thoughts, to understand the power they have within to change their lives. I think we would get a lot more people not feeling so victimized in life if they learned how to do this on their own, like how to
learn this system. And I really believe that, you know, the more we can learn about the mind and our thoughts, our inner thoughts, learn about the subconscious, the conscious, that we could change this world at a really, really beautiful level because it comes down to personal responsibility. And so when we can really take this on and be responsible for how we talk, how we see things and do things with
out seeing it being outside of us. think we for so long think everything is outside of us. This is happening to us. This is happening to us. And we are just victims to the thing. But when we learn how to become resilient within our own minds of what is possible, that to me will change not only
the way we interact within the world, but it will change our bodies because we know that there's no disconnection between the mind and the body. We know that every single thought is having a chemical reaction within the body. And when the body feels a certain thing, it's 100 % translating up to our thoughts. And so there's this constant back and forth between the two. And so if we can really learn that what we've been given from birth coming into this world, we have these faculties that are here to help us live to the...
highest level of what we can do expansion and growth and compassion and love. And so if we can really learn about those faculties and learn how to have reverence for them and to really learn how to understand them, I think that's a conversation that I really would love to continue to go on because I think it starts at the bottom. I always think kids are a foundation. If we could start there, can you imagine if they were all feeling this beautiful way?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:12)
Yeah.
Nicole Cowley (48:17)
about themselves, about the world, if they saw more possibility, if they saw their inner strength, how different relationships would be, how different the ripple effect would be within the world. It's just that's, to me, that's a conversation that we need to have because they come into this world so beautiful and so innocent and so full of hope. And often it's just taken away.
and we could help them anchor it and keep it. Boy, I think things would look really different.
Jacqui Wilkinson (48:49)
beautifully said.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:50)
Yes, if you could remember that we come into the world filled with possibilities and filled with hope and that we don't have to lose that along the way.
Nicole Cowley (48:59)
I can share one thing because Jackie was talking about her kids and I wanted to share one thing that happened to me that was just kind of an example of this. When my son was really, I think he was about three, three or four. And I remember driving in the car and I probably got mad at something while I was driving. And I remember him saying to me, he's like, mom, you really don't know what kind of day they've had. They may have had a really hard day and they're just doing whatever they are doing because
Sarah Jordan-Ross (49:03)
Yeah, go for it.
Nicole Cowley (49:26)
It's just been a tough one for them. So you can't get mad at them. You don't know. And I remember thinking, how does he know that? How does he know something so profound at such a young age? And he was fully teaching me. I was like, uh-huh, you are so right. You are so right. But this is what I was saying. They come in these beautiful lights, right? That have compassion for people. They see things that we don't always see. And then sometimes we just knock it right out of them.
where if they could keep that beautiful, like, my gosh, if everybody always thought about other people in such a beautiful way, we'd have so much less conflict and so much more love. So anyways, I had to share that one because it's the kids, right? These kids show us so many things. ⁓
Jacqui Wilkinson (50:08)
Beautiful.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (50:11)
They do.
Jacqui Wilkinson (50:13)
Great modeling, Nicole. That's what that is. Modeling from a great mum.
Nicole Cowley (50:14)
No.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (50:18)
Yes.
Nicole Cowley (50:18)
Thank
you.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (50:20)
I could quite happily stay here talking to both of you all day.
But I just wanted to ask you both, although you've just shared some beautiful whispers of truth, but if there was one whisper of truth that you could say to somebody who is just starting again, who's hit that rock bottom and is building back up, what would that be?
And whichever one of you wants to go first can.
Nicole Cowley (50:50)
Go ahead, Jack, you do want to go first?
Jacqui Wilkinson (50:52)
Yeah, I'll first. So I think what changed for me, so this is the advice I'd give, is that the moment you choose to believe in yourself is the moment your life will change. So that is it. It won't change until you believe in yourself, that you find yourself worthy, that you think that you're enough. So that's it. The moment you choose to believe in yourself is the moment your life will change.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (51:15)
Nicole?
Nicole Cowley (51:17)
Yeah, you know, I, when you were saying, you know, at the rock bottom, I think one of the hardest things for people is to reach out and ask for help. And I think that if I could share with anybody is there are so many people that want to help you and we are not meant to do this alone. We are not meant to do life alone. And so if you are in that place where
You know your soul's calling you for more, but you just can't see it reach out because people are there to help you. You people, the second you decide to ask and then learn how to receive, you start to rise. And I really don't believe we can really do this on our own at all. So I, I, I know it takes courage to ask lots of times for help, especially if you have pride or you have, or you feel very alone, but just that ask.
will change your life forever as well.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (52:12)
So asking for help and believing in yourself. I think that is a great space for us to wrap up. I want to thank you both so much for being here and for sharing your wisdom and your hearts with us.
You've taught us a lot today.
Nicole Cowley (52:28)
Thank you.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (52:28)
and you
always do. So I will put in the show notes where people can get in touch with the both of you.
So for those listening, if anything we've talked about today has resonated with you, has touched you, then please share it with somebody else who needs to hear it, who needs to know that they're not alone, that their story really does matter, and that believing in yourself and making those changes is where it all starts. I'm Sarah Jordan Ross and this has been
Tabri talk until next time take care of yourselves take care of each other and remember your story matters so please go share it.