What if the problem isn’t your child—but the system they’re forced to fit into? In this episode, Sarah sits down with educator and founder of Learning Boosters, Zoe Buckley, for a powerful conversation on neurodivergent learners, childhood trauma, school limitations, and the healing power of connection, play, and empathy. Zoe shares the story behind her mission, how she helps struggling students feel seen and valued, and what parents can do—starting today—to support their kids without fixing them.
“Your child is not a problem to be fixed. They are a person to be understood.” – Sarah Jordan-Ross
“They’re not lazy, they’re not broken—their brain just works differently. And that’s okay.” – Zoe Buckley
“We don’t need more shame. We need more hugs, more space, and more ways to say, ‘you’re doing okay.’” – Zoe Buckley
Zoe Buckley is the founder of Learning Boosters, a tailored support program for students with learning difficulties or neurodiverse challenges such as ADHD, dyslexia, or trauma-based blocks. With a background in teaching and a deeply intuitive approach to child psychology, Zoe helps children (and their families) uncover root causes, build confidence, and rewire how they see themselves through patience, play, and personalized strategies.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (00:00) Hey everybody, welcome back to Taboo Talk with Sarah. The podcast that breaks the silence, fosters hope, and talks about the tough stuff so you never feel alone. If you're new here, I'm Sarah. I'm mum of three amazing boys. I'm a wellness coach, massage therapist, and a guide through the real raw conversations behind caregiving, chronic illness, burnout, grief, all the fun stuff.
Zoe (00:17)
I thought you'd be right there.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (00:28)
And today I'm joined by someone whose work I've admired for a while, Zoe Buckley. She is the founder of Learning Boosters and has a gift for cutting through the noise and getting to the heart of what's blocking a child in their learning, not just on the surface level, but what's really going on for them underneath all of that. And the need for this work is huge. Recent studies show that about 20 % of Australian students
Zoe (00:43)
Not just on the surface level.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (00:56)
struggle with literacy and numeracy at their expected levels and 10 to 15 of them face specific struggles with their learning things like dyslexia, ADHD or speech and language development delays. The struggle doesn't just impact the child, it impacts the whole family because when any member of a family is struggling, they all are. And Zoe doesn't just support the students she works with, she supports their families too.
because she knows that learning challenges don't exist in a vacuum, they impact everyone. Zoe, welcome, I am so glad to have you here.
Zoe (01:37)
Thank you for having me, Sarah. It's wonderful to be here.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (01:40)
Yay! So...
I'd like to start with your story. What led you to start learning boosters? Knowing that one in seven kids in Australia experience some challenge with their learning. So it's a big issue. What is it that makes you want to get in there and do something?
Zoe (02:02)
Hmm.
Thank you. It's been a long journey for me from childhood. I had learning difficulties myself when I was younger and a lot of that was trauma based. I was in a family that we did amazing things, but I had a very temperamental, cantankerous father who was a disciplinarian, let's put it a nice way, verbally and physically a disciplinarian.
Um, and I was the only girl, I had three elder brothers and my second eldest brother was a bit of a bully. Um, and I used to hear the phrase a lot, you're just a girl. And you can imagine, yeah, you can imagine the impact that had on, on me as a child. Um, and so it's, it sort of stems from that. and being an adult now I can look
Sarah Jordan-Ross (02:48)
I hate that.
Zoe (03:01)
back on my childhood and a way of healing for me personally is that everything that happened to me in my childhood and through my adolescence and all the rest of it, because I had bullying and all the rest of it at school, ⁓ I had it for a reason. So I can look back on it now with more kindness, more love, more nurturing. And I had it for a reason to be doing what I'm doing now.
I started off in the teaching, normal teaching system, the school system. I very quickly got frustrated with how my creativity for finding ways of teaching children was squashed a lot by ⁓ the, you know, principals and other people in the school. I was told that that wasn't how we did it and that I shouldn't be doing that.
even though my particular class was top in literacy in the whole school, it didn't seem to factor in. And we're talking like 30 odd years ago, so it's a while ago now and the system has come on from that, but the thing that annoyed me about the system was that kids were being molded to fit the system and that just didn't sit right with me.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (04:10)
Thankfully.
Zoe (04:23)
So if you had a child that was creative, rather imaginative, ⁓ they would be called daydreamers and you would catch them just looking out the window, just not really concentrating on anything. And in my classroom, I used to let them go for a little while because when we are in that sort of environment where we've got 50 million things coming at us at once,
As an adult, we try and learn how to process some of those things or how to put some of those things aside and deal with them later. you know, it's easy for us to, I guess, sift through the noise. The kids whose brains are really just starting to develop, it's harder for them. Everything's coming at them at once. Now, these sensitive, creative ⁓ kids that were called daydreamers,
The reason they daydream is because they need to shut everything down for a little while to have a bit of a rest from all the noise, all the stuff they're meant to be doing, the way they're meant to be behaving, and they're meant to fit into this little, you know, convenient pocket. Now, this system was fine back 200 odd years ago when we had the industrial revolution, and we needed readers and writers. That was the primary reason for school, right?
These days, it's very different. And I think the reason, or I feel the reason that we are seeing more disabilities and difficulties with learning is because kids are getting so much information thrown at them all the time. They're not being allowed to have downtime.
So their brains are not ready to be able to process the amount of information that we adults are expecting them to be able to. They're just not capable of it. Yeah, we have the odd student that, ⁓ you know, living at a higher frequency for one reason or another that are able to. We call them mainstream students. But we've got a lot of the ⁓ population in schools these days of kids that are really struggling because there's just too much information.
They get it off their phones, they get it off their computers, they get it off the TV. There's more, you know, terrible things that they can get access to these days than when you or I were growing up. And I think the reason we're getting a lot more difficulties is because kids are just not able to process it. So that's my reason. My reason is because I saw in the school there was a real need for this. I was frustrated with the system. I'm still frustrated with the system. But
You know, I have to work with the system to a certain degree. And so I decided, what can I do? How can I nurture these kids? So that's what we do in learning boosters. We look at the psychology behind why a child might actually be having a learning difficulty. Disabilities such as ADHD and all those sorts of things, and dyslexia, are a little bit different to difficulties.
And I think that's the differentiation that needs to be held when you're working with a child too. What is the issue they have? Why do they have that issue? What's the psychology? What's the reason they've got that issue? As someone said to them, get a move on, you're too slow when they're doing maths. So they assume from that, because their brain's not able to process that information, that they're no good at maths. Right or wrong, whether they are or not is not the point here.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (07:36)
Hmm.
Zoe (08:05)
The point is they've taken on that information, now they believe it. So what I do is I come in and I show them what they can do. And they go, but I can't do what my friends do. And I say, but that's because your brain works differently. So it takes you a little bit longer. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It's okay that that happens. You don't work pen and paper stuff. You need to do it. You need tactile.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:23)
And that's okay.
Zoe (08:33)
you need to be spoken through it a little bit more. So it's just getting the child to realize that they are normal. It's just they don't fit into that little handy box that we have these days.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:46)
And that's the scary thing across the board is so many of our systems are built for that fit nice and neatly into specific little boxes and when you don't that makes things really difficult. So some of the underlying factors you already touched on that that there could be disabilities or there could be
Zoe (09:02)
It sure does.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (09:12)
something underlying the struggles that they're having things like working memory or that they've got ADHD or dyslexia or some other working memory issue. So we know that these struggles it's not that they're lazy it's not that they're not trying it's that there's something blocking them. So what is it you do to get to
Zoe (09:22)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (09:39)
You said you look into the psychology and you look at what's going on behind them, but what are some of the things that you use to get to that root cause of the problem?
Zoe (09:47)
The main thing I do is make the child feel valued. Like everything they think and everything they feel and everything they wanna do is valued and is okay. So the way that I do that is through stories. I get them to tell me about themselves. So I start off the session by saying, now do you know why mum and dad have...
dragged you here today? You know, I can see you didn't really want to come, did you? And they go, no, don't want to be here. I don't know why I'm here. Do you know why you're here? No. Well, this is what we're going to do. I'm going, I'm going to ask you to help me. And so to help me, I need to be able to help you. So it's a two way street. So I asked them all sorts of questions like, what's your favorite color? What's your favorite animal? What's your favorite season?
tell me a joke. What do you like to draw? Do you like to draw? What are your favourite things to do? All those, what's your favourite foods? All that sort of stuff. And I allow them to tell me who they are and who they perceive themselves to be. From that, I can through, just through experience mainly, I can work out then, because I get them to write them down as well.
because there's a great connection between physically writing it and the brain taking on information or giving information rather than just the computer. There's a bit of disconnect there. So it's pencil and paper stuff in this regard. ⁓ And so I can see from that how they write, whether they have an issue with spelling, whether they have an issue with sentences.
⁓ whether they have some speech impediment, whether they, what their body language is telling me, all those sorts of things. And from there, I can then tease out of them what they actually think about themselves. And then when they give me an answer, like recently I had a student go, ⁓ I don't like this subject. ⁓ okay. What don't you like? I just don't like it.
So I'd get her to tell me what she's doing in class in this subject and you from that UT is out where they're at and what they think about it. So it's allowing them the space. It's allowing them the, you know, just really listening to them because a lot of the time we listen to answer. So we're not really listening with intent. And
to also let them know, because it's just me and them. The parents are not there at this stage. I usually ask the parents to step out, because the child needs to feel like they can say anything. And I initially say to them, there are no wrong answers, there are no stupid questions, and anything you say to me in this room will not go back to your parents unless you want me to tell them.
And then when I talk to the parents afterwards, exactly, and be their real, real selves, not be constrained by, ⁓ mum's there or dad's there and I can't say X, Y, Z. And then when I talk to the parents, I give them a synthesized view of what I perceive is going on. So I don't, I'm still ⁓ on the pathway with the child of giving them, you know, my...
Sarah Jordan-Ross (12:53)
because they need that safe space to be able to open up.
Zoe (13:21)
What's the word I want? can't think of the word. ⁓ My faith in them and staying with... I can't think of the word. Gee, that's terrible. It's Friday. My brain's Yeah. And being honest with, you know, what I said with the child, but giving the parents the information. They don't need to know the ins and outs of exactly what was said and what happened. Some parents ask that.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (13:33)
It happens.
Zoe (13:50)
And I go, well, know, duty of care tells me that I have to stay with the child on that one. But I can tell you this, and this is what I professionally perceive is going on. And this is a way forward. So that's how I generally work. And that's the first session, you, that we do. And then from then on, I individually plan for each student. So I spend about half an hour every week pulling out what the student needs to know.
and where they're at for grade level because yes, back to the school I do have to have those regulatory things where you know I have to help the child get to a certain stage. ⁓ And we're talking about mainstream students here, I'm not talking about a student with a disability, that's a whole different kettle of fish. ⁓
Sarah Jordan-Ross (14:38)
because they have
extra challenges.
Zoe (14:41)
They do, they do, and they need time. Yeah, they need more time ⁓ to process basically. And so ⁓ what I try and do with the parent is tell them things, tell them what I perceive and give them a plan. And then the plan forward is that I actually spend time every week individually planning for that child in the way that they learn. So from that, also did use
whether they tactile, whether they're oral, whether they're aural, whether they're, you know, vision, whatever it might be. And most kids are a combination of things. They're not just one. And sometimes I'll try, I'll plan something and I'll try it out with the kid and I'll go, ⁓ that doesn't work, it? Hmm, okay, let's try this. And I change it and I adapt it. The kid knows that I don't know everything and that
Hmm, I make mistakes too. And the only way that we learn is from making mistakes. And I don't think that's talked about enough in classrooms, that it's okay to make a mistake. And the reason you're making a mistake is because this is the next pathway through to the learning where next time you'll be able to do that easily. Because kids go, I can't do that. And I go, yet. You can't do it yet. Doesn't mean you're not going to be able to.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (16:03)
very important word.
Zoe (16:05)
Hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (16:05)
They can't do it yet. Because it opens up that possibility that, yeah, okay, they're struggling with it now, but we just need to find the right way around that problem. That's one of the great things I love about your work is how you tailor it to each individual kid and each individual family because, we don't all fit into the nice, neat little boxes. I know as a mum of three boys,
Zoe (16:08)
That's wrong.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (16:36)
What works for one, it ain't gonna work for the other. It's just not, because they are such different kids.
Zoe (16:38)
Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. And the
other thing too, Sarah, is that parents are learning too. Parents, we as parents, because I've got kids too, we as parents, we don't have any answers. We've never done this before. And it's the same thing for a child. So I often say to parents, can you remember a time recently or in your past, when learning was tough for you, where you had to learn a lesson that was really tough for you?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (16:50)
Yeah, all the time.
Zoe (17:14)
And then I asked them to name it. So it might be, I don't know, learning to write, it might be learning to read, it might be driving a car, it might be maths related, whatever it is, a work skill, a recent work skill. And then I asked them to reflect on it. And I saying, so what helped you through it? What made it harder? So those sort of open ended guided questions. And then I say, so why is it ⁓
that we think as adults that whatever the child's name, child X should be able to do something after the first time.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (17:51)
Yeah, where do we get these expectations from? That we're all supposed to get it first go and never have any trouble and that we're all gonna be good at everything on the first go. So often in life we learn more from getting it wrong than we do from getting it right. read a great thing once, what was it? An amateur practices until they get it right.
Zoe (18:05)
Mmm.
Exactly.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (18:21)
professional practices until they don't get it wrong.
Zoe (18:25)
Yes, yep, very good.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (18:26)
So it's the,
yeah, you keep going until you've learnt the lessons and you learn, ⁓ I did it wrong, so I'll try something different. ⁓ that didn't work. It took Edison hundreds of ghosts to invent the light bulb.
Zoe (18:44)
Yes, exactly.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (18:46)
And if he had have
given up after the first go because he wasn't good at it, I think the rest of us would be in bit of a mess.
Zoe (18:53)
We would, we would, exactly right. I had a child the other day who said, I've made a mistake and got the pen and went, and I said, okay, so that's okay to make a mistake. And he goes, no, it's not. And I go, why not? Because my teacher says I have to get it right and we only do it once in class. So if I don't get it right the first time, I'm not gonna get it. And I go, but that's why I'm here. And he went,
I'm here to help you to practice it again so that we can get it. You're not on this journey alone. Because teachers of course, and look, don't get me wrong, they do an amazing job. You've got 30 odd personalities, different personalities in one classroom. I know, I've been there. It's just amazing what they do do. But I've often had students say to me, ⁓ my teacher only did that once with us.
And I'll go, okay, well, we're gonna do it again now. And we're gonna do it again, and we're gonna do it again, and then you're gonna tell me how you do it. So they speak it. They go, oh, well, you do this, and you do this, and you do this. Because that also helps us to retain it. It goes from the short-term memory into the long-term memory. If you can teach someone else how to do something, not only are they gonna be able to do it and remember it, but you will as well.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (20:14)
You get it.
Yes. And it said if you can explain something to somebody else well enough that they can then do it, you actually really know. Whatever the thing is.
Zoe (20:20)
and it said if you can explain.
Exactly. And there's not enough
of that verbal thing going on in classrooms either. There's not enough guided, open-ended questions being asked. And as a parent, the thing you want to do is jump in there and give your child the answer. But actually, that's the worst thing you can do. You have to let that child go through the anger of not being able to do it, the frustration of not being able to do it. It's all part of the process of learning because that's how they will retain the information.
And if we jump in as a parent and go five plus two, that's seven, the kid just writes down seven. Hasn't really learned anything about it. And that's the hardest thing I found as a parent with my son. He needed assistance in maths and English, and he would not let me tutor him. Okay, so I had to get past my own ego in that regard. It was a really good lesson for me in that regard. I had to find somebody else to do it.
But it's very hard as a parent not to jump in and give them the answers because we don't want them to feel frustrated. We don't want them to feel sad. We don't want them to feel angry. And natural response is to protect them. But in this case, that's the worst possible thing you can do because they have to go through those things to get the answer at the end of it to retain the information. And I think kids are too often told what to do.
and sometimes they need to be left to work it out for themselves because then next time when that comes up they'll remember ⁓ did that I'll do it again and see if that works.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (21:55)
instead of showing how.
And you've already given us a couple of little things we can do at home to help our kids, but for those parents who are listening who might feel really stuck because they know their kids struggling but they don't know where to start, they don't know how to help them, what's one small step that they could take that really makes a difference? Especially when we consider that early intervention matters, that it makes a big difference because it's...
Zoe (22:15)
you
Sarah Jordan-Ross (22:32)
research shows that kids who get that targeted support early are more likely to catch up with their peers than those who don't.
Zoe (22:43)
Yep. I think the best thing you can do at home is make any learning situation a play situation. Because kids will want to learn if it is fun. And that's the thing in my sessions with the kids, I'm quite often very silly. And they say, you're silly for an adult. Okay, yeah, that's right. I am. But the reason I do that. No, they don't. But most kids see adults are being serious, you know, and
Sarah Jordan-Ross (23:06)
Don't have to be boring
Zoe (23:12)
all this sort of stuff. So I would suggest for parents that are really stuck, I mean, there's two parts to that. One is if you're really stuck and really need some help and you don't know what to do, get on a free discovery call with me. You can go to my website and just book in a call with me and we'll have a chat and I'll be able to help you on that because it can depend on what type of issue. If they're having an issue, what type of issue.
There's no one blanket thing for all issues. And I wouldn't want to give a blanket answer because it's very individually based. I think the other thing that parents can look at is what sort of wording they're using with their child. So if you want to praise an effort, not just the results. So sometimes the child won't get the result that you think they should.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (23:47)
That's what it'd if there was.
Zoe (24:09)
but we need to praise the effort of what they've done to get to where they are. So you might say something like, love how you keep trying. Or you've just done a fantastic job. Let's try this. So you're guiding them and you're also shifting your own mindset on what you expect the child expect. Don't like the word, but expect the child be able to do.
So you're normalizing those stepping stones to get them to do a particular thing. It might be to pack their bag to go to school in the morning so that they're helping you out. You need stepping stones to get them to that. You can't just say, go and put your lunch in your bag and get on with it and get ready for school. They'll stand there going, ⁓ what do I, what, what? You can do a visual chart of each step. And when they ask you a question, you can go,
What step have you already done? I've done one and two. We'll go and look at your chart and do number three. So you're not telling them what to do directly. They're still having to go and find that information to then be able to do it, but they're doing it themselves. You're not saying step one, go and do this. Step two, go and do this because then they're always going to come back to you. All right. So it's shifting that parental mindset a little bit.
we need to reframe negative phrases as well. We need to get into the growth mindset. for example, if your child says, can't do this, and we talked about this earlier, as a parent, you can say, you can't do this yet. Let's find a way together. Or you can't do this yet. How can we find out how we can do it together? So again, you're not giving them the answer.
that you're getting them to think about how can they solve their own problems basically. Because a lot of the time parents are very busy, we're all really busy, we just want the child to do this and then we're in the car and we're off and we're having breakfast, we're getting ready, we're in the car and we're going. You need to give a little bit more space in the mornings for these things to actually happen and to put the practices in to practice that you would like to see, but not giving your child
the answers.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (26:35)
empowering them to make good choices.
about empowering them to make good choices than giving them all the answers and doing it all for them because sometimes we need to be able to fail.
Zoe (26:45)
Yep. And there's no time to make it that way
too. Yeah. Yep. We have to fail to learn. And kids don't like that word fail. That's the other thing. So I try and make that a cushion that a little bit. Well, we do have to fail. We've got to fail. It's the only way we learn. Rather than them thinking of failure as that's it, I'm done, I'm out of here, I'm never going to be able to do this.
I try and cushion it so that kids are going, OK, recognising it. I haven't been able to do that. And again, it's re-wording it. Maybe not using the word fail, maybe saying I can't do that yet. So it's rephrasing what we're actually saying.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (27:30)
because our words have power and we need to be mindful of how we use them.
Now, shifting direction a little bit. You and I are both part of the HeroMakers community. And it's all about bringing together purpose-driven entrepreneurs, but also about legacy leadership. But one of the things, how important has community been to you on your journey? And have you seen that idea of it takes a whole village
Zoe (27:43)
Hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (28:04)
to raise a child playing out in your work.
Zoe (28:08)
Great question. Yes, yes and yes. Community is so important. Parents feel that they have to be an island to themselves. This is my problem because it's my child. What I would like to see and what I'm trying to nurture is, yes, it's your child and you have a say in what goes and what doesn't. However, you don't know everything.
and to reach out to get help from somebody else who's going to be able to help you, who's going to be able to help nurture you and your child. There's no failure to that. I often say to parents that come to me, kudos for you for bringing your child here because now I can help you and your child with these issues.
And the other thing is that it's relief. know, the thing that I loved in my particular family when I was growing up was that we had aunts around, we had uncles around, we had friends around, grandparents, cousins. So you had an input into your life of so many different people, all their life stories, how they dealt with a problem differently to how someone else might deal with a problem or how you might deal with the problem.
Community is essential, I think. And the sooner we can get back into that, I think the better for everybody. I think we will have a happier, ⁓ you know, the people coming through, the young ones coming through, they will be happier, us older folk will be happier, and the community will learn to actually like each other, tolerate each other, and actually support and love each other as well.
that's the sort of legacy I would like to leave. So yes, community is essential.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:02)
wholeheartedly agree and I think it's sad that it seems to have been one of those things that we've lost over time because you and I are of a similar age and I had that same experience growing up maybe not necessarily with extended family although I did have that but also I know if my mum had to run down the street to get something the neighbours would keep an eye out for us. These days most of us
Zoe (30:11)
Yeah.
Yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:32)
don't even know our neighbours as more than just a passing hey as we walk past them in the street and we certainly aren't generally in a position that we would trust them with our kids. They might be the the fortunate few but we've lost that connection. No.
Zoe (30:45)
Mm.
Well, if you don't know somebody, you can't form that trust bond, can you? So
of course you're not gonna leave your precious child with somebody you don't know. That's just natural, yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:57)
No.
And we've become increasingly disconnected. And what I hear you saying and what I've been saying for a while too is we need to foster those connections. We're not meant to do life in isolation. We're not meant to have all the answers. That's why we have communities. That's why we have
people who are experts in different things and when we bring all that together that's when we can do amazing things.
Zoe (31:31)
Yes, I agree. Absolutely.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (31:35)
And I know... So one of my boys has ADHD and has struggled with a few things and the support that he's gotten has been amazing. And I love that some of his teachers will actually ask me like if there's stuff I'm doing at home that I found worked so that they can can try or they'll tell me stuff that they've tried and whether it works or or doesn't.
Zoe (31:48)
Fantastic.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:03)
But it's hard when they've got 30 kids and they're trying to juggle all that. So then having somebody like you who can give our kids that individual attention is really, important. Because one system's not going to fix everything.
Zoe (32:08)
Yes.
Yes, interesting you bring that up Sarah because
I was talking to a teacher yesterday, I have a student that has Asperger's and ADHD and I work with him every week, a couple of times a week and she was saying to me, he's so argumentative at the moment and I went yep hormones and she was, I hadn't thought of that. I said have you noticed the little hairs growing on his upper lip? I said he's got to that age where
He's not a baby baby anymore and he's not a young man. He's stuck in between and he's questioning everything. Hormones.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:58)
As that between
space sucks.
Zoe (33:01)
Yeah, that's right. Exactly. So and she went, ⁓ thank you. Now I'll have a chat with his mum about that because you're absolutely right. It's something she hadn't thought of. Right. So and in a discussion with me opening up in community space again, community, she was able to go exactly now I understand him better and now I know how to approach him better in the classroom. That's a win for everybody.
including the parent because it'll go back to the parent because apparently the parent had been saying he's so argumentative I don't know what's going on with him. So just that one little thing from talking to a person you know that's observed something and everybody feels better about it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (33:44)
the thing. You noticed something because you were that impartial observer where mum's going
he just constantly arguing with me and the fact that his hormone would not even have occurred to her.
Zoe (33:54)
Yeah.
You think of it for girls, but boys have hormones too. It's just their hormones don't do this every day like ours do or every minute or every hour. Then you know this.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (34:09)
Yeah, they're not quite as crazy.
Zoe (34:12)
So that's the difference, but they still have hormones. He's still going through those puberty changes, you know? So we need to try and understand that from his point of view as well, because he doesn't understand. That's the other thing. He doesn't understand why he's questioning and everything and arguing and everything and why everybody's getting cross and angry with him. He doesn't understand that. Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (34:37)
So it's great that you were able to help them in that situation.
Zoe (34:43)
Yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (34:45)
So with you, with Learning Boosters, what's next?
Zoe (34:50)
What's next? I would want to duplicate myself. I have a waiting list, excuse me, of people that would want to work with me and I am only one person. So I would really love to find some like-minded people who are going to stick around. I have had people come in before, but they unfortunately haven't stuck around to work with me.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (34:51)
What's next?
Zoe (35:20)
in the learning booster space. I would love to just, you know, it's like a community again, build that community that's going to then help others. ⁓ I will help to train them up in what I perceive as what learning boosters is all about. But then I'm also open to, you know, their input as well, of course, because they will be part of the journey. But yeah, I'm looking to duplicate myself.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (35:49)
days it'd be great if we could clone ourselves.
Zoe (35:52)
Yep, maybe with AI. It is useful. It's a useful tool in learning in the learning space. Definitely.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (35:53)
and not just in AI terms.
Yeah.
Yeah, do want to unpack that a little bit more too?
Zoe (36:09)
Yes, I mean, I do. Yeah, there are tools you can use in the AI space, but ⁓ I'm still learning about that myself and learning how to program the AI for each individual student. ⁓ But I wouldn't just put a student on it and leave them. ⁓ I would be in that space with them. ⁓
Sarah Jordan-Ross (36:09)
all those different tools you can use.
Goodness only knows where you'd end up if you did.
Zoe (36:34)
Yeah, how you use that tool, ⁓ I'm yet to sort of realize that myself. ⁓ But I think it can be a really useful thing to do. I still think that a lot of the pen and paper stuff is a good idea, simply because of that visual and tactile connection to the brain. You're getting the visual and the tactile at the same time. And that helps to reinforce the messages. I'm still into that.
but it's not the only thing that I use. I use games and things like that as well. And I'm working with somebody currently that is helping open my mind up about AI and how it could be used ethically as well in the learning space. So I can't really say a lot about that at the moment, Sarah, because I'm not up on it enough to really put it out there yet, but that's something I'm looking at as a future thing for learning boosters as well.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (37:35)
Well done for recognising what you don't know, or what you don't know yet.
Zoe (37:39)
Yes,
yes, but I don't know yet exactly.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (37:44)
Now one question I always ask everyone that comes on Taboo Talk is what's the one conversation you think we as a society need to be having that we're not?
Zoe (38:00)
wow, that's a biggie. That's very complex. Okay, in regards to education, do you mean or? ⁓
Sarah Jordan-Ross (38:13)
Education or life in general.
Zoe (38:16)
Life in general, what conversation aren't we having? I think, well, if we're relating it to the school system, I think we need classes in empathy. I think there needs to be time set aside to teach kids how to empathise with other people. Because I think if we do that, and we talked about this earlier in regards to preparing kids earlier,
you know, that intervention stuff. ⁓ I think if kids understand the ins and outs of other people and are more tolerant of other people, ⁓ I think we're going to have a more loving and understanding world later on. And I think what's happening in the world at the moment, you know, we've had the assassination of that lovely American man. I can't remember his name at the moment.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (39:11)
Charlie... I can't remember... I've just gone blank on his last name too. I will fix that up in the show notes.
Zoe (39:11)
⁓ Marx? Yeah, anyway. ⁓ yeah. ⁓
yeah, okay. and just the wars and everything else. And I think a lot of it has to do with lack of empathy. I think it has a lot to do with, ⁓ understanding what power means and how to use it in an ethical way. ⁓ I think those sorts of conversations, I'm not talking about writing stuff down. I'm not talking about
doing a project on it, I'm talking about simple, you know, ⁓ talking circles. Let's go back to what we used to do, which is talk to each other about particular stuff and, and also having not only that empathy class, but also a class where we sit as a class and go, such and such has got a problem, let's join in and help him or her with that problem. We're also building community there. I think there needs to be a lot more of that sort of thing happening.
And also, if I can go on, also, ⁓ we need to change the setting of school, because at the moment it's in a sterilised environment. Desks, you have to stay behind a desk or you're on the mat on the floor in a particular spot. This is your spot. You move from the desk to that spot. You need to be outside learning more in the environment, in the bush, wherever and using nature.
for teaching kids not only empathy and community and all the rest of it, but about living and breathing things. Because I think that brings into the child an understanding of life in general. And I think the problem with schools is they're too synthetic. You know, as I said, in one environment, you go out and play and run around and be mad thing for a while, then you come back in and you're meant to be in the box again. Doesn't work.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (41:08)
We're wired for connection, we're wired for community and it works so much better when we're in that space. And I completely agree, we need more focus on those things that connect us, those things that unite us, rather than focusing on those things that divide us. I think a lot of the problems that we're seeing is so much of the us and them.
So rather than trying to understand someone else's point of view and come to find that middle ground that you can agree on that, ⁓ we see this thing differently and we see that thing differently, but that, that we see the same. And if we focused more on those.
Zoe (41:38)
Mmm.
Yeah, and it's also the factor
of agreeing to disagree. That's the other thing.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (42:01)
Yeah.
And that I can have a different opinion to you. I can not like something that you're doing, but it doesn't mean I hate you.
Zoe (42:17)
Yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (42:18)
I know I frequently... but... So as a mum, I adore my children. They are... They're things that light me up. But there are times when they frustrate the hell out of me and I really don't like them. But it's only in that minute. And it's not that I don't like them, it's that I don't like their behaviour or I don't agree with...
But I still love them. Yeah!
Zoe (42:50)
And you know what, Sarah, that's normal too. That's
perfectly normal. people, mums and dads, ⁓ but I'm looking at it from the female point of view, obviously, ⁓ we often think, don't like my child right now. They're driving me nutty and I really don't want to be around them. And then we think there's something wrong with us. Again, there's nothing wrong with you. You just need to separate yourself from that situation as best you can for a moment.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:18)
You need to take that space to breathe.
Zoe (43:18)
And the thing I have
with kids, because I work with wards of the state too, they often say to me, I don't like you or I hate you. And I go, well, you know what mate, right now I hate you too. And you can see them reflect on that. And they go, what? Because that's not the, exactly, that's not the reaction they were expecting. They were expecting me to say, well, that's not very nice. And I go, well, I don't really like you much at the moment either.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:33)
because they weren't expecting that.
Zoe (43:47)
So Matt, perhaps we should just sit here for a minute and quiet until we can both just, you know, find something we can talk about. I've been hit and kicked and punched and spat out and all sorts of things. And I've just said to them, see that chair over there, you go and sit over there. And when you can talk to me nicely, then we'll have a conversation. And I just get on with my work. And then I get this little tap on my shoulder and I go, yes. And I go, I'm ready now.
I go, I hope so. Can we move past this? Do we understand why this? And then I talk to them. I give them open-ended questions about why do think it happened? What happened? But I get them to think about what happened in the situation rather than me telling them. Kids are told too much these days. They're not left to work it out. With guidance, of course, but left to work it out.
So what you're thinking and feeling is normal. You're perfectly normal.
And sometimes we need to hear that. You can see sometimes in parents and kids, they can just go, yeah, thanks, I needed to hear that. Because we're not told that. We're told so often what's wrong with us and what we need to do to fix it. But we're not told, well actually, you're perfectly normal. You're who you are. You're one in a billion chance of actually being alive, you know?
That's how special you are!
Sarah Jordan-Ross (45:09)
Love that.
Yep, they're a gift. And yeah, we so often feel all alone or that yeah, there's some problem that needs to be fixed. So I want to really thank you for reminding us all that our kids are not a problem to be fixed, neither are we. They are people to be understood.
Zoe (45:14)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (45:38)
And if we listen...
then we can support them better and we can find a way through ourselves as well.
Zoe (45:47)
Mmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (45:48)
So everyone listening, if you've ever felt overwhelmed supporting your child, you're not alone.
Zoe (45:56)
you
Sarah Jordan-Ross (45:57)
so much in this world. are, all of us, in a constant state of stress and overwhelm. And as I pointed out today, sometimes we just need to give ourselves space to breathe.
to get our nervous system more regulated and then we can come back to doing what it is we're meant to do. When we're in that heightened state, nothing good's gonna come of it, nothing good's gonna happen. But if we can take that time, take that space and focus on connecting, we just might see a difference.
Zoe (46:36)
Sarah, I've been getting the kids that I've worked with recently to go, well done, good job, and pat themselves on the back. And you'd be amazed at how many of them go, ⁓ I'll do it because you told me to do it. And I go, no, no, no, no, I want you to do it because you've just done a brilliant job. You deserve to be congratulated. So.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (46:56)
and you're in
really good company there. Joseph McLendon, who's worked with Tony Robinson's coaches, the one percenters, one of his big things is every time you have a little win, stick your hand up in the air and pat yourself on the back. Big smile, celebrate those wins.
Zoe (46:59)
Yeah.
Okay.
Celebrate it!
Yep.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (47:25)
because
then, and our nervous system does it too. It's the, ⁓ what was I doing just before I got that rush of feel good? I'll go do that again. And again, and again, because we want that feel good. Praise doesn't hurt, and we need to start with praising ourselves, because so often, we bash ourselves up for no good reason.
Zoe (47:34)
Yeah, that's right.
Mmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (47:47)
Yeah, we need to silence that inner critic.
Zoe (47:48)
Because society these days
is teaching us that it's normal to not feel good. And I'm going, hello, that's not what. And when you're not feeling good, I say to my students, give yourself a hug. Just give yourself a hug and rub the sides of your arms. Because what does mum do when you're upset? She goes to the sides of your arms and she rubs your arms. So you just give yourself a little rub like that. If you're not feeling that great, say you're doing okay.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:17)
Yep. So we all need this.
Zoe (48:18)
and you just do that for about
a minute and you will find that those hormones will rise and you'll feel better.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:25)
such a simple little thing but it makes such a big difference.
Zoe (48:27)
Yeah. And that's the other thing, Sarah, it
is simple. It doesn't have to be hard.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:33)
it doesn't have to be hard and you don't have to do it all alone. There are resources available in the community and there is always, always hope. Now I will be putting Zoe's details in the show notes but also if you are struggling or your kid is struggling
Zoe (48:37)
Mm.
Yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:58)
Reach out and ask for help because it is there. There is help, there is support. Reach out and take it.
Zoe (49:07)
Please do. And you don't have to be struggling, Sarah, if you just need some reassurance.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (49:11)
And think that is a great note for us to end on. So thank you so much for joining us and for all of the amazing insights you have given us today, especially, I want to remind everyone, you are not broken. You are not a problem that needs to be fixed.
you're becoming who you're meant to be.
Zoe (49:37)
Exactly.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (49:38)
I'm Sarah Jordan Ross and this has been Taboo Talk with Sarah. Until next time, remember your story matters so share it because your story could be the thing that makes the difference in someone else's life. Zoe, thank you for joining us and thank you for...
Zoe (50:02)
Thanks
for having me. It's been wonderful.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (50:04)
We'll see you all next time.