What happens when the one holding everything together starts to fall apart? In this soul-deep episode, Sarah sits down with communicator and faith-filled encourager Jim Burgoon for a brutally honest conversation about chronic illness, caregiving, trauma, mental health, and the power of faith when life doesn’t make sense. From being a disabled veteran to navigating his wife’s mental health journey, Jim shares how overfunctioning became his survival mechanism — and what it’s taken to unravel that. This is a must-listen for anyone carrying the silent weight of others, feeling burned out by faith systems, or struggling to find rest in the chaos.
“I don’t like you, God… but I can learn to love you.”
— Jim’s raw and real salvation prayer
“You shouldn’t be fighting for rest — you should be fighting from a place of rest.”
“We gaslight ourselves into thinking sacrifice is holy, when often it’s just unhealed trauma.”
Sarah Jordan-Ross (00:01) Hey everybody, welcome back to Taboo Talk with Sarah, the podcast that breaks the silence, fosters hope and talks about the tough stuff so you never feel alone. If you're new here, I'm Sarah. I am the mum of three amazing boys. I'm a massage therapist and wellness coach, spent 25 years in the wellness industry, but I've also walked the road of chronic illness, caregiving and grief up close. Today,
am so glad because I am joined by a friend whose voice always brings honesty and perspective. Jim Begoing. And please tell me I said your name right.
Jim Burgoon (00:40)
You did not. That's okay. The first name you got, the first name you were 100 % on point. So last name is Bergun. Yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (00:49)
The game.
I'll never get it wrong again. ⁓ Jim's a leader, a communicator and a faith driven encourager who's walked through chronic illness, mental health struggles and the very real tension of living and caring in that space. Welcome. I am so glad you're here today.
Jim Burgoon (00:52)
That's alright.
Well, thanks for having me. I'm glad we're going to sit and have a really good conversation.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (01:14)
the plan. So let's start with your story. You've been open about living with chronic illness and mental illness and how faith's been a lifeline for you through all of that. So for those who don't know you yet, because you're a podcaster too, can you share a bit about that journey and how it's shaped who you are?
Jim Burgoon (01:22)
Mm-hmm.
I am.
So I have been, I went to a doctor one time and they were like, and it just really hit me left and right. He said, do you realize you've been sick since like you were like 17 years old? And for context, I just turned 47. And I said, absolutely not. I have no idea. I didn't know I was sick so long. I just know that I haven't felt good. And in 2015, I started this journey because my health had started declining.
And just for context, now, I come, my family has a very long history of autoimmune and a long history of different things. My genetics look like a Christmas tree for it. So it was just, it was like one of those things where at some point there was a good indicator. would show up. But here's, here's a, here's a real quick side wisdom for some of you listeners out there is if you don't take care of your body and that includes your emotions and things, those switches will start to switch on.
And because I've spent a lifetime as somebody who has been challenged with CPTSD and something called PDD, is persistent depression disorder, which is basically high functioning depression, which means you may never see me as depressed, but I feel the weight of that. And that stems from my childhood. I went through a lot of different trauma, a lot of different, I mean, well, I'm sure we'll unpack it, but a lot of different trauma. Fast forward 2015.
my health seriously declines. And from 2015 and 2025, I have been fighting with doctors. I have been gas lit. I have been on this thing. I even went to the holistic side of things. And that holistic doctor or practitioner gave me like 17 supplements to take three times a day, which almost like set my body over. And she didn't understand why my body wasn't working. She's like, this should have all worked.
So needless to say, the blood work, is apparently the standard where they'll actually take you serious, is now starting to talk. And so, but even though the blood work is now starting to pop little things here and there, I had been living with ever increasing levels of challenges, fatigue, just lots of different pain and just different things without a technical diagnosis.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (03:57)
And that's sometimes the scary thing is that you know something's not right, but you can't quite put your finger on what it is. And when all the tests are coming back, no, you're in normal ranges.
Jim Burgoon (04:12)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (04:12)
You can begin to start thinking, it's all in my head. There's nothing wrong with me. I know I was a sick kid. had glandular fever, Barma Forest fever and CMV all at the same time, ended up with chronic fatigue. Went through that whole gambit of she's got another virus. Just if she wants to go to school, let her go to school. If she doesn't keep her home. And for someone who was at that point, a straight A student, a competitive runner,
say no this is not normal but I ended up starting to think until a very wonderful immunologist actually said no you're not crazy you're very very sick and that started on the road of learning to listen to my body taking really good care of myself and learning a lot of those tools to keep myself healthy or as healthy as I could be with what was
Jim Burgoon (04:40)
Mmm.
Yeah
Mm. Yeah.
Mm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (05:07)
going on and learning that what's normal for you and what's normal for me may not be the same thing. Like blood pressure, for an example, I naturally have really low blood pressure. So when my scores are in the normal range, that's actually high for me. And that's not always something that's taken into account with those
Jim Burgoon (05:14)
Right.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (05:33)
normal ranges when we're blood tests and it's that we don't all fit nice and neatly into specific boxes and we need to take that into account too.
Jim Burgoon (05:33)
Right?
Right.
Mm-hmm. You know, once upon a time they actually, you know, dealt with the whole person. And now it's just, if you don't check a certain number of boxes, you're not taken serious. For instance, I know I'm sick. I promise you, like, I know. Like, the Lord has confirmed it. I have seen it. I, you know, I have journaled about it. I have got, I should have been a doctor. I'm just telling you. But like, and it wasn't even WebMD, so we're just gonna leave that alone.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (05:51)
Mmm.
Jim Burgoon (06:14)
but they used to take in the whole person and now it's a bunch of check boxes. And I can tell you that like I have more anti-anxiety pills than I've never taken from these doctors because everybody's like, it's just anxiety, it's just anxiety. And my current provider for the first provider ever said, this is not anxiety. I was like, finally a doctor agrees with me. like I know I don't feel anxious. Now know I can show up in other ways. However,
it's, even said, you're just, it's not, there's not a pathology there. And I was like, well, what is it then? And she said something to me that just blew my mind. Cause I'm a veteran, you know, in the United States, I'm a disabled vet. And she said, you know, one of the things about the VA is that we are great at preventing loss of life and terrible at increasing, what is it, quality of life.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (07:06)
Quality, quality
of life.
Jim Burgoon (07:08)
And it blew my mind. I've been in the VA for over 20 years and this is first time that I'm like, my gosh, no wonder why I've been getting the run arounds and ditched and told this because as long as I'm not dying, which I feel like I'm dying half the days, but as long as I'm not dying, they won't do anything about it. And so the frustration loop continue to happen. yeah. And then faith in that is something that has been a lifeline, an anchor.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (07:35)
That's why I'm a big fan of integrated medicine that uses both the allopathic Western medicine approach, but also complementary therapies and getting to the root cause of a problem because there's something going on and one system is really great, as you said it with the VA, they're great at acute problems and saving you when
when you're about to die, but actually living with what's going on? They're not so great at that.
Jim Burgoon (08:09)
Yeah, I've learned that the hard way.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:11)
And you've also dealt with that reality of living with illness yourself and caring for others.
and you touched on it briefly before of the learning to look after yourself. So what have you learnt in that messy balance between taking good care of you while you're taking good care of other people who need you?
Jim Burgoon (08:35)
It's hard. And when you're an over-functioning high achiever, it's even harder. And so I say that because just for context, I deal with the physical chronic illnesses. My wife deals with the mental illnesses because of her childhood and just different things. We've been on podcasts together. for all your listeners, I'm very much able to share what I share because she's been on shows with me to talk about it.
The challenges with that is being the physical side of it and then the mental health side of it. So most of my life with her, we've been together 25 years and we've been working on stability and deepening our relationship with Christ and all those things. But there's a real emotional strain and drain from that. The chaos that comes from what mental illness can be when it's more severe.
And so, and it's not like it's all the time, but it is, it's something we live with. She's diagnosed with four of them. So when we first were, when she was first diagnosed, I had read, I started reading everything I could. And one of the things that came up was everybody who is taking care of caregiver of somebody who has major mental illness will end up with depression, will end up with some sort of disorder themselves.
PTSD or something, depending upon the severity. And it being a being an over-functioning high achiever, I was like, yeah, whatever. I have you and I used to just joke about it because like I had been through a lot in my life. Like I equate it before I ever got in military, I had already been through war. Like my life was one battle after another. And so I was battle hardened from life.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (10:00)
You
Jim Burgoon (10:18)
And then I actually got into the military and got more, you know, battle hardened. And so I thought, man, I got this. And then I realized I didn't. And then my health, my physical health, and then my own mental health started declining. And so having to navigate that with my wives has been one of the biggest challenges. I'll tell you two things.
Right, like we were joking the other day. I said, you know, I was meditating on this. And I said, you know what's funny? Her name is Mary. I said, have you ever gone over and somebody brought to you a problem and internally you kind of chuckle and you think to yourself, that's it? And she's like, yeah, I feel so bad about that. And I was like, I knew it too. She's like, you do it too? I'm like, absolutely.
Because I said, did you ever realize that the level of our struggle is so hard and we've become so accustomed to it that we don't feel it as much? So when people come to us with problems that we have been through that don't seem like they're problems, it's almost like, is that it? Because of the level we have to navigate. so when you talk about the second thing coming into self-care, I have to do more self-care.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (11:19)
Mm.
Jim Burgoon (11:36)
then I don't even know what to compare it to. It's like, if you were somebody who doesn't have any type of illness or you have your own illness and you do like an hour of self care a week, I'm doing like three to four because I'm having to navigate my own energy levels, which is always low. I'm having to navigate my own health, my own hurt, my own soreness, and then navigating hers with her.
as I help her regulate, as I help her make sure that, you know, one of the big things in our family is just don't die because suicide is a huge thing. She's been hospitalized, I think 12 or 13 times in the last six or seven years for trying to, you know, commit suicide. So like, this is a big thing. So any type of heart emotion or big feeling could lead to this. it's like self-care has to be double, if not triple the amount.
because of the amount that has to be drawn from me. And that's not even including the fact that I'm a podcaster and a business owner on top of that. So, and I have kids and I'm a parent. So yeah, it's, definitely an interesting ride.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (12:35)
You're a parent.
Yeah. And I've seen it so many times that, yeah, scarily the statistic that you mentioned before of carers having problems, I've seen it play out so many times in that whether it's a spouse looking after a partner with dementia, and that has its own challenges, looking after
Jim Burgoon (12:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (13:06)
elderly parents or looking after kids with extra needs. More often than not, it's the carer who ends up needing a higher level of care than the person they're caring for. Part of it is that they're pouring so much into the person that they're caring for that they forget about themselves and sometimes need the little reminder. And it's something I've been fond of telling people for a long time because
Jim Burgoon (13:11)
Right.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (13:36)
Somewhere along the line, we got that idea that putting ourselves first, taking care of ourselves is selfish, therefore wrong. So we don't do it. Yeah, I like to turn it on its head and say, what happens to your wife and your kids if you collapse in a screaming heat because you haven't been looking after yourself? Now what's the selfish thing?
Jim Burgoon (13:46)
And that's a trauma response. Yeah.
Right.
I think this comes up with a great, great illustration too, but to go in there, when we think of terms of what's selfish, what's not, I think what's under the core of that is we don't want to burden anybody with our troubles or our challenges. we, especially if you're like myself who grew up in a very emotionally unstable environment, I struggle sharing my depths of need for help or things like that.
but yet I will take everybody else's burdens on myself. And that's where the high over-over-functioning happens because it's, it's, there's this balance of, you know, I don't personally think, I know it could be seen as selfish. Like for me, it's, it was survival. It was, it was, I have to take all of this on because if I didn't as a kid, like growing up, if I didn't, I was going to get hurt. Somebody was going to get hurt. Things were going to be chaotic and it was just going to be a hot mess.
And so I grew up with that into my adulthood to where when I was pastoring or when I'm with the business or with the family, it's I'm here to help everyone and I struggle for anyone to allow them to help me. And that's just, that's something I've been dealing with before the Lord and in therapy because that's that real big over-functioning because it was survival.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (15:17)
people pleasing comes into that and with it being that survival mechanism of I have to take care of everybody else or I'm not going to make it through this.
Jim Burgoon (15:20)
Yeah.
Right. And you gaslight yourself like you absolutely gaslight yourself. You're like.
I'm a good person, and God forbid you actually put faith into this now. It is my solemn duty from the Lord to get in there and sacrifice myself for this person, because that's what the Lord would want of me. No, that is not what the Lord would want of you. He says, come all you heavy burden, come, I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon me, it's light and easy, I will give you rest. You think of things like that, and then you realize, even when he was in the creation story,
it's on the seventh day he rested, then there's the Sabbath rest and all these things. Rest was never a suggestion.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (16:09)
No, it was a mandate.
Jim Burgoon (16:11)
It was a mandate. It was like, here's your thing. Now we don't have to do it on the Sabbath as a Christian. you know, like we don't follow Jewish laws, but we have to have Sabbath times as I, that's how I term them Sabbath times. And it's like, it's like, here's the thing. You and I and the listeners should never fight for rest. We should always fight from a place of rest.
You know, we're resting in God and that is where we fight our battles. So if I'm resting in God, I can show up better for my wife, better for myself, for my kids, for the podcast. You know, even though all day I'm fighting, I'm like, I don't have any energy. I didn't sleep all this stuff, everything going in my head and the, but I've been resting. It's cause I knew this was coming. And so, you know, it's just that, it's that thing. It's like we fight from a place of rest and we fight from a place of victory.
because it's a whole different mindset when you realize we've already been given the platform for rest, Jesus already won the victory, so therefore, if we're fighting from those places, my whole mindset now shifts. The tension decreases. It's not that it's easy. It's just a different way of thinking about it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (17:22)
Yeah, and the way we think about things makes a huge difference.
Jim Burgoon (17:26)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (17:27)
And there's so many different areas we can talk about, but one of the things I love about you is how your faith isn't a performative thing. It's not just that thing that you do on a Sunday morning. It's all day, every day in how you live your life. So how has leaning into scripture, into prayer and into community, because at the end of the day, we are made for
community, we're not meant to do life by ourselves, how has that carried you through?
Jim Burgoon (18:00)
So it's always a form of encouragement, empowerment. It's a form of cutting, cutting away the things that don't need to stay, the things that are weighing me down. It's like dropping anchor. My heart is like, I want to drop anchor and God's like, cut the anchor off, you're not staying here. When I was, I wasn't always a Christian. Maybe some of you guys have grown up as a Christian.
Maybe you were in church your whole life. I wasn't. Now my family was Catholic in name only, but by the time I was, I think 10 years old, I was an atheist and a witch. Like I was an atheist full on, but by the time I think I was 12, I was practicing full on witchcraft. And I did that for like 10 years. And the things that I saw, oh my gosh, I got stories for days of things that I saw and experienced.
So when I came to Christianity, it wasn't that I was coming because I was afraid to get out of hell, you know, like that get out of hell free card. It wasn't because, no, it doesn't, but that's how it was taught for a while. You know, that's how that intimidation, but turn or burn, you know, you know that's been. But like, it wasn't that for me. Like matter of fact, my salvation prayer, and I love telling the story because of the realness of it, my salvation prayer.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (18:59)
don't think it works that way.
Jim Burgoon (19:17)
was I spent four and a half hours debating a youth pastor because I was an atheist. I am an intellectual by nature. And I debated him for four and a half hours and we got to a standstill. And I said, fine, I'll do it this way. I said, I'll accept Christ and we'll see how it goes. And my prayer
Sarah Jordan-Ross (19:41)
so would have loved to be a fly on the wall for that one.
Jim Burgoon (19:43)
Oh,
that was, yeah, yeah, you should have been. I wish it was, I wish back then, you know, recorded things because that would have been an epic conversation. But so four and a half hours later, this is Thanksgiving of all days. Thanksgiving, you know, it's it's two o'clock in the morning on Thanksgiving morning when I got saved. And so I am sitting there and I said, fine. My prayer wasn't.
Lord, I acknowledge, I believe, I confess. It wasn't none of that. My prayer was, God, I don't like you, but I can learn to love you. I said, I tried it my way, and we see where that got me. That was it. And then of course, the youth pastor felt like he needed to walk me through something. said, I'm good.
And I had an experience with God that day. Like it was incredible. Like I felt like I was in this huge hole and God was like, it was all, it was incredible. And I think it was, so you got to know, here's the story. Atheist witch, salvation. I don't love you, but I could learn. Less than six months later, I'm in Bible college. And it just was like,
because it went from not ever reading the Bible to completely learning how to study, to understand it. Matter of fact, I remember, I'm a storyteller, so this will be one of the last, I'll digress from my stories in a second. I remember getting, we got my wife and I, were gonna get married, right? We were living together at the time, but we weren't both Christians. She was Christian before I was, so I credit her.
to leading me to the faith. She may have not prayed with me, but she is the 100 % reason why I became a Christian. There's a whole story to that too. But I remember going on the plane and this is how hungry I was. I was like, well, I'm scared of planes. We were going to Cancun. And I was like, I'm going to die on this plane. So I got bought my first Bible.
And I read the whole New Testament because I told my wife, said, well, if I'm going to die on this plane, whether to or from, I might as well read the stories and figure out who I just accepted so that when I meet him, I know who he is. And I read the entire New Testament on the plane ride. And I kind of say everything else was history from then because it's for me with my relationship with the Lord, it's always been one of hungering after him. It's always been one of.
just the realness of the relationship. Like I don't shy away from like, Lord, if I did something wrong, please cut me open. Like, you know, like David, like search me and know me, you know, know my comings and goings. And I was like, and it's just been this anchor point in my life that I know no matter how hard life is, no matter how deep the storm is, and we've been in many storms, there is always that light guiding us out of the storm.
And that has been a thing for the entirety of the 20 some years I've been walking with Christ now.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (22:38)
Yeah, I'm there too. I will agree that.
One thing I know that I know is that God has a plan and when I lean into that and follow where he leads, things work out really, really well. It's when I get pushy and demanding and say, but I want it this way and I want it to look like that, that he kind of does that. And we all have those moments where we try to carry everything
Jim Burgoon (22:57)
you
Right.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (23:08)
ourselves. I've learned a few times that
Jim Burgoon (23:09)
Right.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (23:12)
I just get bogged down in that, when I can go, hey, this is too big, too heavy, too hard for me to carry. There you go.
Because God's got big shoulders, He can carry it and He asks us to not worry about anything but pray about everything. He asks us to hand over those things that are too big for us.
So, now you put up a post the other day, because while we're on the faith thing, we'll stay there for a minute. You put up a post the other day and I really loved it. It spoke to me in a big way. When will we jettison the labels of left leaning Christian or right leaning Christian and instead lean wholeheartedly towards the biblical Christ and his teachings? Why are we so encumbered by
Jim Burgoon (23:38)
Okay
Sarah Jordan-Ross (24:01)
ideological inclinations masquerading as Christianity. Now I've seen it too and
I come from the whole denominational thing, the Catholic Protestant thing, all of those divisions. Personally, I think they're stupid because we all say we believe in God, we believe in Jesus, we believe in a life after this in heaven with them. So what are we arguing about?
Jim Burgoon (24:30)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (24:32)
it's not a matter of faith, it's a matter of those other ideologies that are creating that difference. And so I think if we got back to finding that middle ground to where it's, where we can agree on, would be so much better than that constant bickering.
Jim Burgoon (24:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I agree with you. You know, every denomination out there came basically from a disagreement. And it wasn't a disagreement on the majors. It was a disagreement on the minors, you know, like Pentecostals speak in tongues, Baptists do not, you know. And that's not, that's the general, but that's not everybody in those denominations. So it came down to the theological differences on the minor issues, you know. Part of like the heart of that post.
was, you know, especially with some of the upheaval stuff that is happening in United States right now. I have watched people say, I'm a right-leaning Christian, meaning I'm more conservative. And then I've watched more liberal Christians, people who still say they're Christian, but they're very liberal and stuff, like they may be pro-choice, which I don't think you can be pro-choice and Christian. just, that's another story altogether.
I'm not here to argue that at this moment, but my challenge with all of these posts, you know, and I saw some really kind of demonic stuff happening. My challenge with these posts, with the post is really like, listen, anytime we say I am something before I am Christian, we are saying that I am this. I'm, you know, where it goes, I am right leaning Christian. Like it's almost like Christian is an afterthought.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (26:11)
I to talk.
Jim Burgoon (26:11)
And it should
never be an afterthought because Christianity is the reason why we are doing what we're doing. If we're not joining a country club, we joined Christ who literally is sending us in the world to turn everything up on its head. And so whatever your moniker is, and there are many, some of them go, I'm a Sabbath following Christian, or I'm a left-leaning Christian, or I'm this, or...
And the challenge becomes anytime you put an identity statement before Christ or Christianity, you are saying, identify with this. I do not so much identify with Christ. And we run around trying to convince people of our ideological differences. Like I have to convince you that I am pro-life. I do not agree with abortions. I think abortions is murder. Plain and simple.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (26:50)
Hmm.
Jim Burgoon (27:04)
And I don't hold punches from that. If people ask me, this is what you get. But I don't go, I'm a right leaning Christian. I said, I'm just a follower of Jesus. And as I read the Bible, that's what it says. You know, so I mean, this is where it's all really important how we identify. And if you're a follower of Christ, identify with Christ. Don't identify first with the worldly standards. Be like, I am a follower of Jesus.
who happens to believe or who happens to be right leaning. You can do it like that, but don't be like, I'm of this and almost like Christ is a tag along, like your little brother's coming with you to the store. I think that's why specifically the Western church has no authority or power. If we treat Christ as our co-pilot and not the pilot, we will never walk in any of the promises he has for us.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (27:57)
And yet we like doing that, we like.
Attaching different things together even when they don't. We sometimes forget to put those first things first.
Jim Burgoon (28:04)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (28:05)
So how do you think we shift from that? From attaching those extra things and making, got a secondary to actually putting those first things first.
Jim Burgoon (28:18)
So one of my biggest soapboxes that I have been on for years has been the absence of the fear of the Lord in the church. When we look at the book of Acts, we see where somebody was trying to dupe the Holy Spirit, you know? Because even Peter was like, you didn't have to lie, like you could have been honest, but because you tried to lie, Holy Spirit took him out. Like, it was like, oops, they had to bury those people.
And it said something really interesting, and the fear of the Lord went throughout the church and the church grew. And we oftentimes ask ourselves, why is our faith stagnant? Why do we feel stuck? Why do we not get deeper?
It's because we don't fear the Lord. just for the listener, because I know you've taught this, I'm sure, but just for the listener's sake, it's not a terror. It's not like cower and fear. It's a deep reverence knowing all that God could do but holds back from doing because every one of us deserve a lot worse than what we got. Like when we got Jesus, there was a whole lot of mercy and grace there because if we got what we deserve, my gosh, like we...
Sarah Jordan-Ross (29:29)
I think
I'd like that.
Jim Burgoon (29:30)
Yeah, I don't think I would like that either. But because of that, if we just sit there and have that reverential fear of the Lord, like, and say, wow, God, I had the fear of the Lord in me. You're first. There's a statement in my household my wife and I say all the time, and this came around years ago after some hardship. Whatever God wants, God gets.
That's one of the number one rules in our house because we want to fear the Lord and put him first, whatever God wants, God gets. Now, do we hear him all the time? Absolutely not. Do we miss it a lot? Yes, we do. But when we get the inclination or the inspiration where the Holy Spirit is leading us, we pray about it. We struggle through it. We fleshly struggle through it. But at the end of it, whatever God wants, God gets. And we have to tell ourselves that a lot because it's not easy. But to make the shift.
I would go back to check the fear of the Lord in your life because when I read the Bible, it's the fear of the Lord, like Proverbs, fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, wisdom, and understanding. You know, we get back to those places and you're going to find such an opening or a dynamic in your relationship with Him that you've never had before.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:45)
going deeper with him because you know what he's capable of and what he could do if he chose to.
Jim Burgoon (30:52)
Right?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:53)
And yeah, our family's a little bit the same of the... If God wants you to do something, you can go, do I really have to? You can argue against it. But if he wants you to do something, odds are you're going to end up doing it. So save everybody the trouble and quit arguing now.
Jim Burgoon (31:11)
Right.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (31:12)
Yeah, because when Jeff and I started TDC, Today's Discipleship Community, now I haven't mentioned it too much on the podcast because we talk about all sorts of different things, but when we started that, we both said, we need it like a hole in the head. Do we really have to do that? Yes, yes, you do. And by being obedient to that, following that,
Jim Burgoon (31:13)
You know what? Good.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (31:36)
our own faith has grown and so too has our community and our connection to other people who then when we are going through challenges strengthen us and help us to be able to to get through that whether it's that somebody has knowledge that we don't have or someone else has been through
Jim Burgoon (31:39)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:00)
a similar experience to us and they can give us the wisdom that they've gained through that so then we can find our own way to navigate through those challenges. Communities are really, really important.
Jim Burgoon (32:14)
Mm-hmm. It is.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:16)
With where you are now, what gives you hope and what keeps you moving forward in all of those struggles?
Jim Burgoon (32:25)
That's a good question. It's a really good question because some days I'm like, I don't know. Some days I get struggle and I'm like, do I even want to move forward? Like some days, you know, the tension in my body gets so intense and I'm like, you know, bed sounds good for the next six years. You know, and I, I joke with that with my wife and she always slaps me and not physically slaps me, but she's just like, no, you know, she's like, you're not doing that. I was like, but I could.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:44)
Yep.
Jim Burgoon (32:54)
So the reality of it, I think, which moves me forward and keeps giving me hope is the hope that Christ has given me. Who am I to keep it from someone else? So every time I talk about it, every time I'm working to, you know, whether it be to challenge belief or deepen belief or help people find belief, whatever it is, it's always with the hope of, I want you to meet the same Jesus that I met.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (33:21)
Mmm.
Jim Burgoon (33:21)
You know, I want you to experience the same Jesus that I experienced, you know, and I don't even feel like I got, I'm that deep with them yet. You know, like I feel like there's so much more, but who am I to lock myself away in isolation or just wherever understanding that when I do that, who am I not impacting?
with my story, you know, the Bible tells us our lives are epistles, you know, they're living letters to people. And if I say, okay, the end of my letter and I still got a lot of life to go, who am I missing? Whose life could have been changed because I came to that podcast, your podcast, whose life could be changed? Whose life could be changed if I showed up at the stage or whatever it is? And that alone,
makes me like move forward and continue to move forward because I remember I never forgot what it was like being the atheist and being the witch and being alone and being in struggles and seeing demons and doing all these things and not knowing there was something better.
And so I remember that scared kid that ran to a witch coven because they were the only people that accepted him.
And I remember that scared kid who almost ended his life several times because it got so intense. And I remember that kid and I wanna reach out to the people, whether they're adults, kids, whatever, and help them find the real Christ and tell them there's a better life or a better story than that. So that just helps me keep moving forward,
Sarah Jordan-Ross (34:56)
Yeah, because so many of us do go on that search. We're searching for meaning. We're searching for connection. And sometimes we find it in
Jim Burgoon (35:03)
next.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (35:07)
I won't say the wrong places, but maybe the place that isn't right for us isn't where we belong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jim Burgoon (35:13)
there's some wrong places out there. We just need to call it. There are. I've joined three of them. I, yeah, there's some wrong
places. The witch coven was not the right place.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (35:21)
But at the time, you would have definitely thought that it was, that that was where you, because you were searching for that and it would have filled a little bit of that need for connection and belonging, just because that wasn't where you really wanted to be connecting and belonging. But you didn't know that at the time.
Jim Burgoon (35:25)
yeah!
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
They were the only one that accepted me. Like I had gone through so many different groups, friend groups, or even the church. We were part of the Catholic church and I tried their youth group at one point and nobody accepted me. The one who accepted me was the local witch and I spent years with them. And it wasn't until, like I said, wasn't until somebody like my wife showed up and literally showed me what love looked like.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (36:06)
it's sometimes that one person showing you the way that one person praying for you that one person. Misty Kerrigan when I interviewed her she said one adult who cares for a child can be the thing that makes a difference to that child and she does a lot of work with homeless youth with at-risk
kids and it's like all it takes is one caring adult to make the difference. And I think for a lot of us all it takes is that one person to say the thing we need to hear or to set us on that that right path. I know for myself I grew up my family's Catholic. I have four aunts who are nuns. God was given in my life from day one.
Jim Burgoon (36:34)
Yep.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (36:56)
I did a little bit of wandering into new age and other things. I've always liked seeing where things overlap, where they're different. As a massage therapist, I also practice shiatsu reflexology and all of them are based on the idea that a physical problem has a mental, emotional, spiritual, they turn
spiritual so it's a chi problem so it's a spirit problem so my brain went if your soul ain't right ain't nothing right
Jim Burgoon (37:20)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (37:29)
But yeah, I went exploring, but nothing ever quite felt as right or fitted the way that Christianity did. But then I married an atheist.
Jim Burgoon (37:42)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (37:44)
And my very wise mother said once, he needs God in his life and when that happens, everything will change. And she was absolutely right. It took years of praying and it took him reaching rock bottom to reach out and say, hey, my way ain't working. So I'll try yours.
Jim Burgoon (37:52)
Yep.
Mm-hmm
Yeah, I love it. Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (38:07)
and
he went from
I'd taken him to stretch because I knew that that was what was missing.
But we ended up storming out of storming out of Massey. I don't ever want to hear any more of this god rubbish again, although knowing my husband as you do, he was not that polite about it.
I wasn't, it's like, you're to take the kids, none of it. Two weeks later, we were at a long table family feast run by Towers Community Church, which we now is our local community church, but it was just at Indoor Kids Playground Function Center. That was all we knew about it to start with.
And at the end of that feast, the then senior pastor invited us to check out the church service on the Sunday. And I'm standing there going, could the ground open up and swallow me now, because this is not going to be pretty. I nearly fell over when he said, OK, I'll come along. That Sunday we went. spent the day with tears streaming down my face, because I went, I've come home.
Jim Burgoon (39:03)
Mmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (39:14)
He ended it by going up to Tim and saying, I don't know anything about this Christianity stuff, but I know I want to, will you help me?
That was in September, he was baptized in the November and went on a mission trip to India in the following March. So when God gets his hands on you, he turns things around really quickly.
Jim Burgoon (39:29)
Thanks
Absolutely.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (39:37)
And there's always hope because at that time we were on the edge of bankruptcy, the edge of divorce, our marriage was all over by the shouting.
and
Jeff came close to taking his life. like to think that Holy Spirit intervened because our son Harrison who
At that point, once he was asleep, he was asleep and you would not hear boo from him for a good eight hours. He woke up in the middle of the night and walked into the bathroom.
And that was what stopped Jeff from taking his own life. And that was what then set him on the, my way isn't working, I need to change.
wasn't planning on sharing that story, but...
Sometimes the stories that need sharing are what comes up.
Jim Burgoon (40:22)
Absolutely, yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (40:25)
So my favorite last question to ask everyone, and you'll like this one, what is the one conversation you think we need to be having that we're not?
Jim Burgoon (40:39)
the one conversation we need to be having that we're not in terms of just in general or in Christianity or.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (40:47)
can get Christianity or society in general.
Jim Burgoon (40:50)
So I think we need to have more of the mental health conversation. I think we've been flirting with it. I think that for a long time, mental health has been, of any illness has been stigmatized. My wife and I have fought through a lot of that stigma and we've been advocates for greater conversation. And I think that
when we see all the violence or when we see all the things, it can be traced back to a lot of mental health problems that are not being addressed. So I find that the conversation that we need to have is more depth of how do we really navigate mental health? How do we navigate healing in mental health? And then going into the church with that,
Being somebody who, my wife and I, some people who have struggled through it for years with the mental illnesses and the challenges and stuff like that, church is not a place that we've ever found that understand or even has margin for that. We found maybe one or two here and there along our journey, but as a general whole, the church is not equipped.
to deal with mental health. And so you have a lot of churches that are like, just pray through it, just do this, just do this or do that. And the reality of it is here are these people with some really deep mental illness that prayer does work 100 % believe in prayer, but it's gotta be prayer plus therapy, really get in there and dig deep. And I think we're just, I think it's just ill-equipped.
I want to see a greater conversation around that. And I want to see the world starting to accept the realities of mental health and what we're going to do about it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (42:25)
because the statistics around mental health are horrifying with suicide is at an all-time high. It's the leading cause of death for men.
in their teens and early twenties.
I think it's one in four, either medicated or receiving treatment. That's a lot of people who are struggling with it and yet it remains one of those things we don't talk about.
Jim Burgoon (42:49)
Yeah.
Right. Well, it's it's not me talks about the fact that I think it's like one in five is, you know, diagnosed who have come forward.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (42:57)
and
Jim Burgoon (43:06)
which means how many people out there who are not diagnosed and they said they do say it's going to be you are right i think with the one in four with the medicaid and all that but i think as an overhaul worldly conversation i was reading a statistic i said it will be one in four so one out of every four people in the entire world will have a mental health problem or condition or know somebody that does by like 2030 2035
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:10)
Hmm.
So that's a lot of people who are touched by it in one way or another and not talking about it, not having those conversations just makes it harder. Talking about it's not gonna make it worse, it just might make it better.
so often when we go through and that was part of why I started the podcast too was there was a line in a song called Whiskey Lullaby and it says the song is about suicide and it says nobody ever knew how much she blamed herself.
Jim Burgoon (43:44)
present.
Mm-hmm.
It is.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (44:00)
And it was because her partner had committed suicide a number of years before and then she did as well. it's like, yeah, nobody ever knew. Nobody knows what we're going through because we don't talk about it.
Jim Burgoon (44:14)
Right.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (44:15)
So I wanted to start podcast to have those conversations. So, and to share those stories because I really believe it's our stories that can be what changes somebody else's life.
I'm really glad you came on and shared some of your stories with us.
Jim Burgoon (44:33)
Same here, I'm grateful that you had me. Yeah. Be able to tell you at least a couple stories. I have tons, that's the-
Sarah Jordan-Ross (44:39)
Yeah, you and I could
probably spend all day sharing stories.
Jim Burgoon (44:45)
I'm sure we could, yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (44:47)
And we might have to do it again sometime because yes, the mental health conversation is one that needs a lot more unpacking and coupling that with the faith conversation because so often we try to separate out those different parts of ourselves and maybe what we need is to integrate them.
Jim Burgoon (45:11)
Yeah, and I agree with that 100%.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (45:13)
I want to thank you for being so open and honest and so willing to share those real raw stories. I know lots of people are going to feel less alone because of it. And for those that are listening, if you've walked through seasons of illness, mental health struggles, caregiving, we see you. If you've ever wrestled with faith, with labels, with doubt,
think we've shown you, you're not alone. And if you're learning to honor that hard stuff while still holding on to hope, we're right there with you. Keep living like it matters. Make every day sacred. Carry forward that hard-won wisdom in how you love, how you serve, how you show up for one another. Thanks for being here with us today.
Sarah Jordan Ross and this has been taboo Talk. Until next time remember your story matters so share it. Your story might be the one change for someone else.