What if wishing wasn't simply something we did when blowing out birthday candles—but a way of training our brains to notice possibilities, find solutions and move toward something better? In this fascinating conversation, Sarah sits down with author and storyteller Brownell Landrum, creator of the Cosmic Wish Experiment and author of The Art and Science of Wishing, to explore the psychology and science Brownell connects with wishing, the difference between wishes, prayers and goals, and why hope is something we can actively practise. They also explore neuroplasticity, meaning after adversity, listening to our bodies, unanswered prayers, and what might happen when people begin hoping—and wishing—together.
Brownell began researching wishing while world-building for one of her novels. What started as storytelling led her to explore anthropology, psychology, neuroscience and other fields she believes help explain why wishing and its rituals can be powerful.
Brownell introduces her Three Ps of Wishing: peaceful, positive and purposeful. Rather than continually focusing on what we don't want, she encourages people to identify the positive outcome they're actually seeking.
Brownell describes goals as generally focusing on what we believe we can control, prayer as often releasing what we can't control to a higher power, and wishes as potentially occupying the space between the two—combining personal action with openness to possibilities beyond our control.
Not every wish needs to come true exactly as imagined. Brownell describes four possible responses to a wish—yes, no, wait, or something better—and introduces what she calls the expansive pivot: moving beyond one narrowly defined outcome to understand the feelings or deeper needs underneath it.
For someone who has stopped wishing because life has disappointed them too many times, Brownell's message is compassionate but challenging: allowing ourselves to imagine something different is itself meaningful. Sarah closes the conversation with the idea that wishing isn't about escaping reality—it's about changing it.
“Wishes need to be peaceful, positive, and purposeful.”
— Brownell Landrum
“Sometimes no isn't an ending, it's just more information.”
— Brownell Landrum
“Wishing's not about escaping reality, it's about changing it.”
— Sarah Jordan-Ross
Sarah Jordan-Ross (00:00) welcome back to Taboo Talk with Sarah, the podcast that breaks the silence, fosters hope, and talks about the tough stuff so you never feel alone. I'm your host, Sarah Jordan Ross. I'm a wellness coach, speaker, and I believe our stories have the power to connect us in ways we often don't expect. Now, today's conversation is about something we don't often stop long enough to think about. Hope. Not wishful thinking, not pretending everything's okay.
But the kind of hope that helps us keep moving when life hasn't gone according to plan. My guest today has spent years exploring that question through research, storytelling, and curiosity. Branel Landrum is the author of The Art and Science of Wishing and the founder of the Cosmic Wish Experiment. What intrigued me wasn't simply the idea of wishes. It was the deeper question underneath that. How do we move hope?
From something we feel to being something we live. Brownell, welcome to Taboo Talk. I'm so happy to have you here to talk about wishes and whatever else comes up.
Brownell Landrum (01:10)
Well, I'm excited too. Yeah. It's it's an interesting world, the whole world of wishes and the science in wishing was was such a fun thing to explore. So I'm happy to share whatever you wherever we take it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (01:24)
Yeah. Well and most
Brownell Landrum (01:25)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (01:26)
people hear the word wish. They think of fairy tales or wishing on a star, birthdays, kids stuff. But you've spent years researching it and looking at the science behind it. So what made you take wishing seriously enough to devote years of your life to understanding that?
Brownell Landrum (01:48)
Well, I first of all I like to make sure everybody knows I'm a storyteller, not a scientist. So if anybody's ever hearing anything I say and they have something to add for science, I'm this explorer that's always looking for more information and more more input. So I just was writing a story that's semi-autobiographical. It's called A Love Story to the Universe.
And I was writing this story about this magical world of wishes and how this place upstairs where wishes are kind of sorted and granted and these wish fairies and all these kinds of things. And so I was in this magical world, but when you're creating a magical world, you have to do what's called world building, right? In a in storytelling. So you have to kind of decide what are the parameters? How do I define this world? And so I was trying to decide things like what is a wish? How is a wish different from a prayer or a goal?
you know, lots of these kind of for formative questions, which we can get into if you want. And then one night, and this is something weird about me, but when I can't sleep at night, I listen to science lectures.
And so one night I was listening to a science lecture, and then I'm all of a sudden thinking, wait a minute, is there science in wishing? And that led to this huge exploration and my book where I quote over 70 different scientists. And basically one of the big things that I like to tell people is, did you realize every time you make a wish, you engage over a dozen different sciences?
And it's a lot more powerful than people think. Yeah. So that's really been just it's so much fun to kind of consider how do you make a wish more powerful by understanding and applying the science. In fact, my my I have a podcast called Cosmic Wishes, and that's the theme is how do you turn a wish into a what I call a cosmic wish, and that's by adding science to it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (03:46)
So what are some of the science things behind it? For those science geeks
Brownell Landrum (03:49)
Well, actually you mentioned
Sarah Jordan-Ross (03:51)
among us?
Brownell Landrum (03:52)
Yeah, well, you mentioned a couple of them. you said, you know, seeing a shooting star blowing out candles on a birthday cake. And we think of those as kind of throwaway things, but that's really part, that's one of the sciences is anthropology. And the ritual wiz we use, rituals we use related to wishing is such an important component of it because that goes into also our sociological makeup.
our history, how people got together and had this collective vision and this collective hope, and the science of the ritual itself.
Is that reminder that we have this power. So it's incredibly important, even though it might sound silly, it's like, wait a minute, if I this is the thing to help me remember that I have this power inside of me. And if you have a daily ritual, then you're starting to trigger what's called neuroplasticity, and you're training your brain to find solutions to help you get your wish.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (04:54)
Yes. That's the interesting thing about the brain. It's very malleable work. It's it's not completely formed in our childhood. We st will keep growing our brains throughout our lives. And we can rewire things if we just find the right way to tap into that.
Brownell Landrum (05:14)
That's exactly right. And one of the things for me has kind of been an interesting way to look at it and to try to understand the difference between like, let's say we're just like dwelling and dwelling and dwelling and dwelling on an issue. It we have to decide sometimes it's because we need to solve that problem and our brain is going to not give it up until we've solved that problem. And then we solve it and it's done and the brain is finished and it's done its job. But sometimes we're just reprogramming a pattern that we don't need anymore.
And we can reprogram
Sarah Jordan-Ross (05:45)
Mm.
Brownell Landrum (05:45)
that into a totally different thing. One of the big principles that I talk about is I call it the three Ps of wishing and that wishes need to be peaceful, positive, and purposeful.
And the positive part is really important because we sometimes are wishing like I wish this wouldn't happen or I wish I don't have to deal with this or and those are those are exactly what put us in those negative spirals. When we sw shift it and we say, I wish po for this, I wish for world peace, not I wish this war would end, you know, I wish for these positive things, then your brain is gonna start looking for those positive answers.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (06:25)
Mm-hmm. Because the brain is hardwired in a couple of ways. One to keep us safe, and the other,
Brownell Landrum (06:30)
Yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (06:31)
it will look for evidence of what we believe is true. So if we're say if we're putting negative things out there, then that is what we're going to see everywhere we look. But if we're looking for positive things, again, that's what we're going to see everywhere we look because our brain is searching for those things that support our already formed.
idea of how the world works.
Brownell Landrum (06:58)
That that's true. And when we're making a wish, what we're doing is opening up a possibility for our brain to find the solution for. there's two big parts of the brain. I just gave a TEDx talk. I don't know if I told you that beforehand, and it hasn't
Sarah Jordan-Ross (07:12)
He did.
Brownell Landrum (07:13)
aired yet, but but one of the things I talk about in the TEDx talk.
Is the idea that the two parts of the brain that really help us in wishing, and one is called the reticular activating system, which you probably know. Do you know what that is? Yeah. And so do you want to explain? Do you want to tell everybody what it is? Okay. Well, it's basically part of us, like if you've ever kind of thought about buying a specific kind of car, for example, and then you start seeing it everywhere. You're training your brain to look for something.
And so if you're looking for an answer to your wish and you say, here's the problem. In fact, I love Mark Manson's quote where he says, happiness is solving problems. And what it's doing is it's satisfying that part of our brain to say, okay, I've got this problem now, brain, let's go solve that problem. And so it'll start looking for those things that give you those answers to those questions. I was dealing with something myself that was kind of this.
annoying health issue and without getting into too much de detail, I was like going to doctors and all this stuff. And I thought, I need to do my own methodology. And I sat there and had this conversation with my body said, help me find the solution. And the next day, randomly, randomly we what might put in quotes, right? But my brain, I'm at the grocery, I'm looking for something completely different. And there's the answer to my question. And this is something I had been to
eight different doctors and fourteen different doctor visits and nobody knew the answer and there it was the next day because my brain was like, I'm gonna help you answer it. And then the other part that's also kind of my favorite part really is something called the default mode network. Are you familiar with that?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:57)
No.
Brownell Landrum (08:59)
It happens w we all know the feeling. It just has a terminology and w has a scientific explanation for this thing that we kind of all know. But basically what it is is that when it when we turn off a particular part of our brain, this other part turns on and that helps us find answers as well. And so and it's really the source of this creativity and this imagination. And it's it comes up a simple way to think about it is have you ever
I'm in the conversation. I can't remember that word I'm looking for, or whatever this thing I was trying to remember. And then you go take a shower and the answer comes to you, right? Or you go for a walk. And it
Sarah Jordan-Ross (09:37)
All the time.
Brownell Landrum (09:37)
is literally the the prefrontal cortex is turning off, and that allows this other part of the brain to turn on to find these answers that are floating around there. And we think we we think we zoned out, if you will, but what we're doing is actually activating that part of us. And so
There's some fun things like Aaron Sorkin, the writer, talks about that when he's in writing mode, he sometimes takes seven showers a day. And what he's doing is that's his way of triggering the default mode network. It's like, okay, I've got to turn my I'm too I can't solve the problem by thinking about it. I have to let it go, and then the the answer will come to me.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (10:18)
Which is cool that he
Brownell Landrum (10:18)
So
Sarah Jordan-Ross (10:19)
actually understands that about himself and what he needs to do to
Brownell Landrum (10:23)
That's right.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (10:24)
'cause I know one thing I've realized over the past few months is like when we're in survival mode and we're just focused on getting through the day, we sometimes even stop asking ourselves what it is we really want. We stop that wishing or the looking for possibilities because we're just so
Caught up in getting through that day. Do you think that being in
Brownell Landrum (10:53)
That's right. We're flooded with
we're flooded with that cortisol, right? And that's fight or flight. And so therefore we can't it it it we our brain has to focus on solving that particular problem. And like you were saying, it but sometimes that's not even the problem. We're just we're just focusing on something that that our brain needs to change and realize, no, you know what, it's all okay. it's funny when I did my TEDx talk, I had a tool in my toolkit.
To help me get focused and get get rid of some of that anxiety. And I didn't use it and I didn't think about it till the next day. But was was EFT? If you've ever done EFT and tapping, you know, and it's like if I had done that, because you could that's so great because you can go from like an eight on a scale of one to ten, an eight of anxiety and go to a four within a few minutes. Like it it works so fast. I was like, why did I not use that? But I'm telling people so
Sarah Jordan-Ross (11:49)
Be because
you weren't thinking about it at the time. And that quite often happens of the
Brownell Landrum (11:54)
Well it it's
Sarah Jordan-Ross (11:57)
why did I not do that? What if why didn't I think of that when I needed it? Or you're having a really important conversation and what you you think of the exact perfect thing to say? Ten minutes too late.
Brownell Landrum (12:12)
Well, and that's exactly
Sarah Jordan-Ross (12:13)
And you do that.
Brownell Landrum (12:13)
for the reason you said, because we're in fight or flight. We're in such an anxiety mode. And that's the that's the paradox is that we forget to do the things that's gonna that are gonna help us because we're so caught up in had the problem and not in the solution. So yeah, you're exactly right.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (12:34)
So many interesting things for us to talk about.
Brownell Landrum (12:37)
We can go anywhere you want.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (12:41)
I know in your work you've looked at hope and wishing from all sorts of different angles. Is there anything that's really surprised you with that? Or something about people and wishing and hoping that's surprised you?
Brownell Landrum (12:59)
I think the thing that surprises most people when I'm talking about it, which is, you know, surprised me obviously when I was discovering it, that the the first thing is that every time you make a wish, you engage a dozen sciences. Most people are like, What? What are those? I don't understand that to help me understand, right? And the other is when I tell them that, you know, if you look at wishes, prayers, and goals, that wishes are more powerful than prayers or goals.
especially what I call cosmic wishes when you apply the science. And people are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't believe that. Goals are the way to go. Goals are the you know, like they can't abandon that idea and then I start talking to them about it and they are like, yeah, you know what? You're making a lot of sense. That that that's that that does sound right.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (13:50)
Yeah, because there is a difference between those three. And there's also a difference between making a wish and acting on it and just wishful thinking of the well, I wish it wasn't that way, but then you don't actually take that action to to make any changes. Or so do you want to take us through the differences that you've found between like setting a goal, saying a prayer?
making a wish and then turning it into a cosmic wish, as you said.
Brownell Landrum (14:24)
Yeah, absolutely. so basically a goal is something you think is in your control, right? You set a plan to make it happen. You can say something like, I want to lose 10 pounds, I want to take this trip, I want to get this degree. And usually you can say, Okay, here's my plan, or I want to save this money, these kinds of things.
so it feels like something in your control. And then prayers are usually kind of the opposite. It's when everything's out of your control and you release it to a higher power, however you define that higher power. And the thing about a wish is it incorporates both of those things because it it does allow for the things, you know, to get and the more you add science to your wishes, the more you bring them in your control. And I'm gonna explain like kind of an example of that.
And then there is the idea of the that what I call cosmic collaboration, where you know that there are some powers outside of you that help you help bring your wishes to life. And what I love about wishing, especially, is that you can be super religious and understand it fits into you know most belief systems, the concept of that. You can be spiritual and not religious and get it, right?
And then you can be neither and be just pure into the science, and it all makes sense when you start understanding the science. So the the best example I can think of.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (15:52)
Which makes it even more powerful because
it's something very wrong.
Brownell Landrum (15:57)
That's right. When you bring all those together, I mean, if if if my one of my wishes is for people to start understanding that so that, you know, it's kind of like the elephant and the blindfold. Then we all might have a different definition of that energy or whatever it is that we're tapping into. but science can explain it through scientific terms, things like quantum physics as well as the collective, I call it the collective subconscious as opposed to the collective unconscious, and that's a whole nother thing.
But there's all kinds of energies and things that we're connecting to that we allow for that. And a goal doesn't usually allow for that, right? A goal is like I can do this, I'm gonna make this happen. But if you think about a lot of goals and a lot of like let's just say lose ten pounds as the goal.
Think about where your body, you know, because I talk about the three selves, whether you want to call it conscious, subconscious, superconscious, or mind, body, spirit, or I can use inner self, outer self, higher self. But there's these three parts of us, and your body's going, I don't want to do that. That doesn't sound fun to me. and the body wants it to be fun. Like if it's not fun, the body is going to sabotage you. And so, but if you say to your body, okay, hey body, you know what?
I want to let's feel better let's let's wish to feel better in our clothes. Let's feel wish to make a wish to find foods that we enjoy eating that make us feel really good. Let's find activities that give us joy. That's a lot more effective than saying I want to lose 10 pounds.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (17:28)
Yeah. And it's much
Brownell Landrum (17:30)
That makes sense?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (17:31)
more likely to happen.
Brownell Landrum (17:33)
That's right. And you're gonna have fun and you're gonna sustain it and it's gonna be a lifestyle change. And then of course, you know, in order to engage that neuroplasticity, as you know, you've got to repeat it. And you ideally have to repeat it every day for eight weeks. And then once you've repeated it every day for eight weeks, then then it's part of who what your brain is. That's what's what your bl brain will follow. And what's fun about that I've been discovering, and it's been kind of a a a surprise to me in a way.
Although it's obvious it's one of those kind of obvious surprises, is the better you get at like if you practice it every day, and let's say you're wishing for something specific, your other wishes become very powerful. It's like you've trained your brain to be better at wishing, not just to accomplish that wish, if that makes sense.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (18:23)
Yeah. Because if you can accomplish one wish or you get better at wishing, then there's going to be more times that it's effective in your life. And you're going to start seeing constant change.
Brownell Landrum (18:32)
That's right. And you know. Yeah, you can
have those days like I did with boom, the next day, there's the answer. Right. I didn't need to wish eight weeks to get the answer to that question. But wishing over the period of time and training my brain to be ready for that and looking for that and recognizing it is what I needed. and and we were talking about right before the we hit record, we were talking about sneezing because there was a an experience. And I I think you'll
appreciate this because I I told you I have a sneezing story and I thought, let me bring it up now because it kind of relates to what we're talking about. Is this was several months ago, maybe like nine months ago or something, but I went through this period where I was sneezing all the time. Like, and I mean these are clear the room sneezes like you know, they're like a hurricane came through the room.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (19:21)
Like the one we heard before.
Brownell Landrum (19:23)
Maybe. And so I'm like
Where are these? I've never sneezed like that before in my life. And I was just for like several days sneezing like this. And then all of a sudden, I was like, my dad used to sneeze like this. And I was like,
this is my dad visiting me, telling me he's supporting me. And as soon as I realized that, the sneezes stopped. Now
As a scientist, if you're looking at from a scientist standpoint or scientific standpoint, you could say, okay, Brownell is looking for something that's going to comfort her and she need and having that that psychological comfort in helping her feel supported in her wish is beautiful and positive. And who's to tell her where it came from? Right? If I was just a straight scientist. If I'm metaphysics, I'm going, yeah, my dad's there and I know he's still here and I know I'll see him again. And I know that was a sign from him.
And it doesn't really matter which is true. Either way it works.
So I thought you might appreciate the wish my my sneeze story.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (20:31)
Yes. And it is very much like that is that we are meaning making machines. So we will find the meaning behind things. And like my first thought was if you're sneezing uncontrollably like that, your body, your mind, your spirit is trying to tell you something.
Brownell Landrum (20:54)
That yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (20:56)
And of course, as soon as you received the message, it stopped yelling at you. That's
Brownell Landrum (21:03)
That that's it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (21:04)
and our body's always like that. It's always telling us something. And when we listen to it, it doesn't have to yell at us. So
Brownell Landrum (21:12)
And that
is so important, right? I don't know if you know about this. My actually my first book was called Five Reasons Why Bad Things Happen. And one of the interesting things about that is that there's some really interesting research about that just believing that things happen for a reason make you happier for that same reason because you found meaning in that, and finding that meaning
And feeling like you have what's called self-efficacy, that you have some ability to find meaning and therefore transfer it into something that can turn into purpose is huge psychologically. So there's a lot of people think, no, no, no, that's making people feel guilty. And of course, you don't want to weaponize anything like this, right? But when you realize it's like, in fact, one of the things I talk about in the new book is I call it reverse optimism.
And that's when you can look back at your life and go, that happened, so that that would happen. And if that hadn't happened, then this wouldn't have happened, then I wouldn't be where I am. And even though that was really hard, and that was really hard, and I wouldn't want to go back there again, I'm I can look back and realize that I'm that that had a reason and maybe even grateful that it did happen ultimately.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (22:29)
I think that's something that a lot of people listening would be able to relate to too, and that sometimes when we go through really horrible experiences, like a cancer diagnosis or losing someone, going through grief, having a chronic illness. Years down the track, we can look back, or I know in my case, I look back and go, while I wouldn't wish that experience on
Anybody. I also, if I could go back and not have it, that's not the choice I'd make because I wouldn't be who I am, where I am, doing what I do if I hadn't had those experiences. And I know Jackie
Brownell Landrum (23:16)
That's right. And those
Sarah Jordan-Ross (23:18)
Wilkinson, who's been on the show, wrote a great book. Now she went through some experiences that nobody would want to. She had nine.
out of ten possible aces, adverse childhood experiences. But her book is called Turning the Tables on Trauma. And she turned it all around and is an amazingly successful woman. She's also an all around terrific kind of person. And her life could have gone very, very differently.
So it just goes to show that we can turn pain into purpose, that we can make those wishes come true. And that was something I wanted to ask you. Like with all the work that you've done and everything that you've learned through that, is there something that you've seen that now that you've seen that, you can't unsee it? And what do you?
hope people begin to see differently because of the work you're putting out into the world.
Brownell Landrum (24:35)
there's probably a million answers to that, but I'm gonna give you one that's gonna actually kind of flip it into a question for you to
Sarah Jordan-Ross (24:43)
yeah.
Brownell Landrum (24:43)
ponder because I I I I have this, I call it the blue balloon phenomena. And and I wrote a a section of the book, and I'm actually doing an edit of the book right now because there's just more science and there's more stuff coming in all the time and more explanations, and I've got
Sarah Jordan-Ross (25:00)
So why small science?
Brownell Landrum (25:01)
a
There's always more science and I've got a blog because I just can't stop coming up with, you know, more really cool stuff. And but this one is the is a concept of imagine that you're driving home from work, let's say, and you have this vision of a blue balloon in your driveway. Just just came to you, blue balloon in your driveway. And then you drive up in the driveway and there's a blue balloon. How did that get there? How did that happen?
And I'll just tell you in the book I list three possible explanations and now I have like a dozen. So there's a lot of possible And the whole point is that there's probably a dozen more if we started getting creative. And when we think we have the answer, there may be a dozen more answers, and that's what makes it all. That when you say what's the most surprising, what's the thing that I'm it's like there's so always often so many possible explanations, and I want to hear them all and I want to
absorb them all and explore them all. And I don't want to filter by a belief system of something. I want to look at the possibility and honor someone else's answer. Even if it might sound crazy, that's what science starts with is somebody having like, well, what if this could be true? And then they do the research and maybe find it. So do you have any any possible things that are in your mind when I say the blue balloon is in your driveway?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (26:33)
again, lots of different explanations. You could have seen it out the corner of your eye and pictured where it was gonna land and it just happened to land there, or it could have been that you thought it into being there because our thoughts are incredibly powerful. But what popped into my head as you you said it, how many scientists were told
You're absolutely bonkers. And then years later, sometimes even after their deaths, everyone around went, bugger, they were right. So it just goes to show we shouldn't automatically discount ideas just because they might be a little outside of our current thinking of the realms of possibility.
Brownell Landrum (27:28)
It's honestly if I meet someone who says, absolutely that's not true, they're not a scientist. Because you can't
Sarah Jordan-Ross (27:36)
No
Brownell Landrum (27:36)
discount something if you haven't done the research. You just can't. And you have to say, okay, I don't under I don't know that there's research. I don't know what research I could do to prove this thing. I my novels, as I said, I get into whimsical stuff with my novels, but I write about reincarnation in some of my novels, and I have so much fun getting into that.
And there's some scientists that are absolutely not true. It's like, then they're not a scientist because a real scientist would say, is there evidence? Is there a way to prove it? And if there's not, they can't tell you you're wrong because they can't disprove you. And it has to work both ways in order to be real science. And they can just say, I'm not interested in researching that. It's not an area that I think is worthy of science. That I can respect, but you can't say it's not true. You just can't.
And you know, and in something like that,
Sarah Jordan-Ross (28:25)
Because you can't know that.
Brownell Landrum (28:26)
you don't know that. And in something like that, it's actually a lot more logical that it would be true than not true. I mean, you know, and and depending on whether you want to go back to Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, they all believed in it. I mean, they weren't dummies, you know. or whether you want to say, Well, what about the children? Like Carl Sagan said, it's worthy of study because those children's stories are pretty compelling, you know. and again, I don't care if people believe it or not.
But I what I do care is that people try to refute something that they say is absolutely not true and they haven't explored it. and there's some things, obviously, science proves. I mean, right?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (29:04)
It's kind of like saying you don't like something when you've never tried it.
Brownell Landrum (29:09)
Right. Exactly. You can say I'm not interested in trying it, and that's totally fine, right? but you know, you can say there are things that are true, like the earth is round. I mean, there's, you know, there's the the you'd have to go disprove that.
in a if you were trying to make that claim. I mean there's there's certain established frameworks within science that aren't worth spending a lot of time discussing. But if if there's something that that you can't disprove, then why not explore it or at least allow people to explore it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (29:43)
Mm. Allow for the possibility that it might be true.
Brownell Landrum (29:47)
Yeah. And and let people have that. I mean, if they're the ones in that world, it's it's kind of like the, you know, Dr. Ebon Alexander. I don't know if you read his book. he was the Harvard neurosurgeon that had the ner near death experience. And there's these doctors saying, No, it's here's the disproof this did not happen and he's like
And here's the produced proof of that disproof. Like here he has a whole chapter on they say it's not this, but let me tell you this wouldn't have be true if that was true. Like, you know, and so you know, and he he had his of course he had his experience also like Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor, who had the I don't know if you know her, she was the brain neuroanatomist, she wrote my stroke of insight and she had the stroke and she's describing this whole experience of her stroke and you know, I mean
Nobody knows her brain better than her and and she's a neuro brain, you know, neuroanatomist, so she knows the anatomy of the brain. you know, I tend to lean to her for for some expertise than somebody who just has an opinion just because they, you know, don't want to look at it. So there's my view on all of it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:58)
Yeah, she might have a vague idea of what's going on.
Brownell Landrum (31:02)
Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if you read her book, but it's fascinating about what happened because it hit her left brain and so she was only right brain. And so she like she had no spatial con context at all anymore because the left brain is what put puts spatial context around us. And and so she and when she was in the hospital, she could hear all the way down the hallway. There was no distinguishing between voices anywhere in the building.
and so she had some really interesting experiences because of that and she was able to write about it and she she's got one of the top TED talks in the world. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's anyway but
Sarah Jordan-Ross (31:42)
haven't yet,
but that's another book to add to my shelf and another TED talk to go watch. So thank you for that.
Brownell Landrum (31:50)
Yeah, well, you know, I think we all should watch that one just because we never know when we could have a stroke and what would that do to our brain and how do we prepare for that and what's the feeling of it. I actually had one two and a half years ago or three years ago, whatever it was, and it what didn't turn out to be a you know the the real one, right? It was the the mini one that has no but when it was happening, it was all the symptoms.
of a real one. So there was no way to know until it went away and then it didn't have the the impact. And then I went and did what I needed to do to prevent it from happening again. But it was the I I I sat and I was able to process what was happening while it was happening. And I was thank I was so thankful I had read that book and understood, okay, this is what's happening. This is how this works, you know, and you know.
Anyway, I think it's one of those things we all should probably know.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:52)
Yes, we should all
Brownell Landrum (32:52)
we got off in the bat tangent.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:53)
know.
But we'll go with it.
Brownell Landrum (32:58)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:59)
Because I agree. It's one of those things that women in particular, we should know how strokes work, how heart attacks work, and how it's different for us to what it is for a man. So it doesn't we're not just tiny men, we do function completely differently. Our hormones complicate the picture a little and there's lots more work being done on that now. But yes, educate yourselves on
what your body does. And if something's going on that you go, that's not normal, that's not normal for me, go get it checked out. Because it could be, yeah, you're having a a TIA that if you catch it in time, it won't turn into a stroke. Or if as a woman you're suddenly
cramping and bloating and all of those other things that we say are normal part of being a woman. If that hasn't been your picture up until now, then no, that is not normal and it really is something you should go get checked out.
Brownell Landrum (34:18)
And there can be an answer to some of the questions, you know, that's where really getting to know your body. that was one of the things I especially in my first book is one of the bad reasons why bad things happen is subconscious sabotage. And when I realized that your body is your subconscious, right? It was like now I'm of course, but then it was kind of a mind-blowing thing because that was like 20 years ago. And and then you go, okay,
I don't are you familiar at all with the Huna religion, H-U-N-A? Have you ever heard of that?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (34:51)
Not really, no.
Brownell Landrum (34:52)
Well, one of the things that's a principle of you've heard like the expression the big kahuna. Have you ever heard that expression? Well,
Sarah Jordan-Ross (34:58)
Yes, yes.
Brownell Landrum (34:59)
the kahuna is the head of the Huna tribe. So we've all we all know what a kahuna is, but we don't know what a kahuna is. one of the things that they do, it's more like psychology 101 than it is a religion. And
One of the things they are very clear about is that you have a different name for each of yourselves. So you have a different name for your body. And when that when I learned how to do that and have her name, then I can have a conversation. Say, what's going on with you? How can I help you? Where are we? And then you make a friendship with that part of yourself as it as if it's a separate being can be so powerful. And then you can say, Well, okay, what's happening here? What are we doing with?
And I was dealing the thing that actually caused the the stroke in me was I didn't even know until finally I've got the answer. I at first I knew it was something triggered by digestion. and then but it took like you know, two and a half, I don't know how many years later. And then it was like, it's right there, there's the answer that explains it. I mean, it was just the most obvious answer, and I'll just tell you it's kind of what it is like, okay. Not the not the most f self-flattering thing.
But I I'm I'm mostly a vegetarian, so I don't eat any meat. I sometimes all eat seafood. And what I needed was beano. I don't know if you have you know what I'm talking about when I say beano. And I I realized that when I was eating foods that had that would cause gas, it wasn't releasing and it was pressing that gas was pressing up against my diaphragm and pressing up against my heart and causing my heart to have an irregular heartbeat.
And I took Bino, boom, problem solved.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (36:39)
Which then triggered the strike.
Brownell Landrum (36:41)
I didn't wouldn't have had the stroke if I had taken Bino. No math together, except when you can have a conversation with your body saying, wait a minute, you know, why wasn't I listening to you? You were trying to tell me all along there was an issue and you were trying to find a solution and it was right there. So anybody listening.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (37:00)
Yes, 'cause quite often our body whispers
at us long before it yells at us.
Brownell Landrum (37:05)
Yes, yes. And and and that's where it's important. Like one of the things I talk about in my TEDx talk is I say, kind of imagine you're walking your dog and the dog runs off. What do you do? Well, most people either chase the dog or yell at the dog. But what if instead you go, hey, it's fun over here, let's go this way? The dog's probably gonna go, yeah, let's go over this way, right? Well, and our body's the same way.
So the we make it fun for our body, our body's gonna say, instead of saying, I wanna lose ten pounds, your body's gonna go, I'm gonna steal that I'm gonna sneak some some dark you know, food I shouldn't eat while you're not list looking. Right. or it
Sarah Jordan-Ross (37:48)
Eat that
chocolate cake just 'cause I can.
Brownell Landrum (37:51)
Right, I'm gonna eat it and you're not paying attention, so I'm gonna eat it like an extra bite, and then you think, Why wait a minute, I just ate I don't I know I ate that donut, but I don't remember eating that donut or the chocolate cake or whatever. Like you don't eat and so now it's like, Okay, if you're gonna eat that chocolate, enjoy that chocolate cake. I mean really, really savor it. I mean just every bite, remember it, conscious, you know, and give your body the pleasure that it wants to have.
and it probably won't even want it so much anymore. It's just trying to get your attention. So, so yeah, make it fun. So that's why I said, like, you know, hey, instead of saying body, let's lose weight, hey body, let's get healthy, let's feel good. I want to take care of you. What kind of exercise do you want? What will give you joy? Let's do that. Let's find foods we love and we'll do that. And you know, I'll I'll stand by it. I don't have the science to prove it, but I think that's a lot more powerful. Well, I do have some science behind.
that but as far as I don't have a study to prove that versus a goal, right? I'd love to see somebody study. Somebody had a ten pound goal and somebody had the other goal and I'm willing to bet the one where they made friends with her body isn't much
Sarah Jordan-Ross (39:01)
Yes.
Take that bit.
Brownell Landrum (39:08)
It's it's pretty logical now.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (39:10)
And
it's one of those things too. Yeah. It does seem fairly logical that if we're working with that that hidden part of ourselves, that hopeful part of ourselves, we're going to get much better results than if we're working against a part of ourselves.
So
you've got a little experiment going, the cosmic wish experiment.
Brownell Landrum (39:37)
Yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (39:39)
Do you want to tell us a bit about that?
Brownell Landrum (39:41)
Yes, it's it's still very much in the infancy. and but the concept I'm hoping will be something that that gets really big and and powerful. And that is basically what the the concept is that people would form what I call a wish circle. And so somebody would have a wish, and let's say the wish is
You know, I wish for world peace, or I wish I have somebody that says, I wish for a safer place for animals, something like that. And then they would invite other people to join their wish circle. And they would go through an eight-week wishing process. Like I said, it should be eight weeks. And for one minute a day, they're going to make their wish and they're going to figure out what their ritual is so that they're all making it either at the same time or while they're doing the same thing. It could be
you know, have somebody when they're having the morning coffee, another when they enter a particular room, that threshold at the door is their time to make their wish. You know, whatever whatever their ritual is, but they're making that wish together. And so and then over a period of eight weeks and then there's kind of what I ha call a little mini playbook so they hit they can download for free and they can learn some of the sciences. So maybe a minute or two a day and then
for about fifteen, twenty minutes a week. And the more you can get everybody together and do the activity together, the more powerful that is because it's and I know you know this, is it's a lot more than one plus one equals two when you're starting to pull in that collective intention.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (41:12)
Yes, it's more like one plus one equals eleven.
Brownell Landrum (41:16)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's I can't remember the math, the formula. There was an actual
Sarah Jordan-Ross (41:19)
But we're each putting a
Brownell Landrum (41:22)
formula. Somebody did the math on the actual formula. but I don't remember the math. I can't keep hold all that in my brain.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (41:31)
No. Too many things to hold in your brain. You can't keep everything in there.
Brownell Landrum (41:36)
That's right. That's right.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (41:43)
Now here's one for you. Has there ever been a wish in your own life that changed, not because it came true, but because you changed. And because you changed, your wish changed.
Brownell Landrum (41:59)
That's that's a very beautiful question. And yes. I think that in fact one of there's a chapter in the book about the four responses to a wish, and that's yes, no, wait, or something better. And so, and one of the things that gets really interesting is that sometimes yes isn't always the best answer. Like you may get the thing you wish for, and then you're like, okay, that
I don't you know, it may and it's usually the material things that you think they're they're kind of superficial. You think, just I have to have that Ferrari in my driveway, I have to and then
You're like, okay, now it's a used car the next day, you know. And you know, and then the neighbor gets a fancier one, and then you're like, What's why that you've spent all that effort on that wish. and then there's that sometimes no isn't an ending, it's just more information. It just guides you towards something. So you're just learning that lesson of the no. Sometimes it's wait, which means you're not ready and and that's okay. You know, you maybe there's some more preparation. And then the last one is something.
Better because a lot of times we don't allow for something better. And for me, it was something I was wishing for, and I was like, it's this, it's this narrow. I'm gonna be specific. I wish for this particular thing. And then it just felt so hard wishing for that thing.
it was something completely out of my control, right? And cosmic collaboration could help only so much, right? especially when you're wishing for something specific with a specific other individual, right? 'Cause 'cause interfering with their free will.
is can be tricky and and wishing for or about others can be tricky. And then what I realized instead of wishing for this particular thing, I call it the expansive pivot. So it's like, okay, I could go that narrow, but then if I expivoted and expanded it, it's like, what are the feelings I wanted from that wish? What are the what are the things that I liked about this situation that I want to see? And it could be a relationship or whatever that is. And it could be particular
job, you know, any of those kinds of things. I really wish to have gotten this thing. And then you just the expansive pivot says, okay, I like the way I felt here. I like the way I felt there. I love the way that this would give me this or feeds this part of me. So I can still wish for those things, but I'm going to expand it and allow for something better. And one of the things I talk about in the book, you know, as a storyteller, it's fun to talk about, is the idea of wants versus needs.
And
a lot of times in stories, we look at the things we you know, there's a lot of stories in movies and things are about the things we want or the character wants, but then by the time the end of the movie, that's not what they needed, right? So the whole purpose of the message of the movie was to find out that I like I don't know if you know legally blonde, but that's my favorite example because
Sarah Jordan-Ross (45:01)
Yeah.
Brownell Landrum (45:01)
she wanted to marry that guy. I mean, she wanted to marry that and we're like, No, you don't.
You know, the audience is like You don't want that But she had to find out, you know, well so what she needed was to find out her own power and he was a beautiful path to that. He was a huge gift to her.
to go that way, but she wasn't he wasn't what she needed, you know, not at all. So there's a lot of stories and it's fun to look at stories and think, okay, you know, even in the movie Castaway, you know, he really wanted Kelly, he wanted Kelly, he wanted Kelly. And there's a little the Easter egg in that movie I didn't know about until so many years later. And I don't know if you've seen this, but I love this, is at the beginning we see the woman that has the box with the wings on it.
it right and we see the package being picked up at the farm.
Right. And then it goes off to Russia or whatever and then it ends up on his plane and then he has it with and then the end of the movie takes it back. Well at the beginning of the and when they're driving up the FedEx bar truck is driving up to their farm, it says Dick and Bettina at the very top of the sign. So this is clearly Dick and Bettina's house. And then at the very end the name Dick had been taken off the sign and it just said Bettina.
Yeah. So now you're like, he Kelly got him through that thing, but she wasn't the person he was supposed to be with. But Bettina was taken at the beginning. And all of the I call it the traffic angels. This is my little whimsical way. But it's like that there's people like, okay, how are you gonna make him get to there? And how in the world are you gonna get Tom Hanks's character to go to that farm again? Like you have to do a lot
And his personality at the beginning of that movie would have never been happy with that woman at the end. Right? Because he wouldn't have been happy living in the middle of nowhere on a far I like that would have not been his jam at all. And yet by the end, that's exactly the vibe that he probably would make him happy.
So maybe all of that happened you know, I love when movies do that. I I I I write movie scripts too. I haven't ever had one made yet, but anyway, that's a good example of want versus need, you know. And we were sitting there thinking, we want him with Kelly. No, not necessarily. You know, that wasn't the purpose. So
Sarah Jordan-Ross (47:33)
Yeah. And sometimes what we think we want and what we really want and need are very different things.
Brownell Landrum (47:41)
are very different things. And sometimes, you know, like the songs like Thank God for unanswered prayers th you know, we look back and think we wished for this and wished for this and then we
Sarah Jordan-Ross (47:48)
That's great. So
Brownell Landrum (47:49)
look back and go
You know, I wanted this relationship to work. And you're like, no, you know, and I've I have my own experience of that of a situation where if it had gone the way I wanted it to, I wouldn't be where I am. You know, it it it
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:04)
Mm.
Brownell Landrum (48:04)
was a great catalyst, but it wasn't necessarily supposed to you know, go down that trajectory that I saw. And was very painful not to have that wish, yet it was also, you know, one of those blessings in disguise kind of things.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:22)
Yes. I love that song too and the line in it that sometimes God's greatest gift are unanswered prayers. So it's the asking
Brownell Landrum (48:32)
That's right.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:33)
for those things. But sometimes it's the that's not what you you might think that's what you want, but it's not what you need. And you end up with exactly what you need.
Brownell Landrum (48:41)
Right. Well I think the Rolling Stones
saying about that, right? You can't always get what you want because sometimes
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:45)
Yeah.
Brownell Landrum (48:47)
you get what you need. Right. They knew it. They knew
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:50)
Yeah.
Brownell Landrum (48:50)
it, Nick and the boys.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:52)
So once.
Brownell Landrum (48:54)
So many great songs, yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:58)
Yeah. So I've got one last question for you. If someone listening today thinks they've stopped wishing altogether because life's been hard or they've had too many of the not getting what they want that they feel like wishing, hoping, praying is pointless. What would you say to them?
Brownell Landrum (49:21)
Well, first of all, I have compassion because I've been there. in fact, the the story I was telling you about that I was writing or that I wrote, it's published, it's called A Love Story of Universe. One of the messages within that is the protagonist gave up on wishing. She didn't feel like she deserved it. And she felt like, well, if I'm gonna get a stray eyelash, I'm gonna wish for somebody else because my wishes aren't going to come true. or I'm not worried.
Of my wishes. And and then I take that into the world in my little magical world, I call it Estrella, and it's this world of wishes. And the the the and this is storytelling, but I you know love to throw a storytelling element is when someone on Earth, there's there's some times on Earth where people stopped wishing, and it can devastate the entire planet. and I have one story of
And I actually tell this story in in my TED talk, but is during the Black Plague and people stopped wishing. And the the the story which I which is you can't disprove, but but I and I don't have anything to prove it. But the idea is that somebody sees dandelion and they're like, I
They take a dandelion and they just get inspired to blow the dandelion. And as they do, they imagine their loved ones, you know, ascending to heaven and or to a higher place. And that they that can make them more peaceful and more positive and more purposeful as they're feeling that feeling. And and it's like this relief comes from them. And then somebody watches them and says, I can do that too, and I can do that too, and I can do that too. So the the social.
contagion if you will is kind of the terminology that scientists call it but it can it could devastate our world if people stop wishing and it can also have the opposite effect is when we s if we started wishing together and we really pulled our power together and wished together we could make such a difference. We could fix so many problems.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (51:33)
It's amazing what we could accomplish if we all pulled together for a joint purpose and focused more on what connects us than what separates us and focus more on that finding hope collectively, not just individually. Thank you so much for for joining me today. I have really, really enjoyed this conversation. And for everyone who's listening,
I hope that today's conversation has reminded you that hope is not a passive thing. It is something we can practice mostly by wishing together. And sometimes it'll be quietly, sometimes imperfectly. Sometimes it's just allowing ourselves to believe that something different is possible.
Brownell Landrum (52:29)
And just to think
Sarah Jordan-Ross (52:29)
And that wishing
isn't about is sorry. Here you go.
Brownell Landrum (52:34)
Sorry. No, I was just gonna say just the whole idea of if you can just be peaceful, positive, and purposeful for a minute a day, that's going to change that could change everything. Even if you just feel those things, it can change so much.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (52:48)
Yes. 'Cause wishing's not about escaping reality, it's about changing it. And in those little
Brownell Landrum (52:55)
Yeah. That's it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (52:57)
ways that's how we'll do it. So for everyone listening.
If you've enjoyed this conversation, please share it with somebody you think needs to hear it. If it's given you encouragement or something to think about, please share it with somebody else and let us know about it. Because that's how we can keep breaking silences, fostering hope, and making the world a little bit brighter and a little bit better through our collective wishing.
For everyone. Until next time, take care of yourselves, take care of each other. And remember, your story matters, so share it. Because your story, like Brannell's, might be the thing that changes somebody else's life. Bye for now.