Why does no one talk about the weird in-between years of womanhood—when you're not quite postpartum, not quite menopausal, and yet somehow totally disconnected from your body? In this deeply honest and empowering episode, Sarah Jordan-Ross sits down with naturopath and wellness expert Emma McDonald to unpack what’s really going on when women say, “I just don’t feel like myself anymore.” From libido and hormone shifts to nervous system overload and mum burnout, this conversation breaks down the myths, names the mess, and offers practical, compassionate guidance for finding your way back home to your body.
🔑 Key Takeaways:
🗣️ Quotes to Remember:
“Not having a libido, weight gain—those are symptoms. Just like a cough or a broken leg. They’re messages from your body.” – Emma McDonald
“You don’t have to do it all. And better yet—you don’t want to do it all.” – Sarah Jordan-Ross
“You are not broken. You’re just disconnected—and you can find your way back.” – Emma McDonald
⏱️ Key Moments:
👤 Guest:
Emma McDonald
Naturopath & Wellness Practitioner
Advocate for Women’s Health, Cyclical Living & Nervous System Safety
Sarah Jordan-Ross (00:00) Hey everybody, welcome back to season two of Taboo Talk with Sarah, the podcast that breaks the silence, fosters hope and talks about the tough stuff so you never feel alone. If you're new here, I'm Sarah. I'm a mum of three, a wellness practitioner and I've spent a long time listening to the stories we don't always have language for. The ones that live in our bodies, our relationships and our nervous systems. This season of Taboo Talk is about noticing.
Noticing what isn't right. Noticing what our bodies, our lives and our communities are trying to tell us. And staying human enough and connected enough to listen. Today is one of those conversations we don't talk about often enough, especially as women. I'm joined by long time friend and all around amazing person, naturopath Emma McDonald. Now we've known each other for a while, we worked
together back in 2009 when Emma was a beauty therapist studying naturopathy. Today as a naturopath she supports women through a deeply holistic lens looking at cycles, stress, burnout, nervous system safety and life stages not as separate issues not as separate little boxes we put things in but as a whole. Now recently Emma shared a
post about libido that stopped me in my tracks. Not because it was provocative, because it was honest. It names something many women experience but rarely feel safe to talk about, which is precisely why we're talking about it here. And I am so glad to have you here. Welcome to Taboo Talk.
Emma (01:47)
so lovely. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to talk about anything that is against the air quotes norm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (01:48)
You
Yeah. Yeah, normal's not something we've ever done particularly well.
Emma (02:02)
No, no.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (02:03)
So I want to start with the question that I'll be asking all of my guests at the start of each interview this season. And that is, what have you noticed about women's bodies desire, wellbeing, that you haven't been able to look away from? What's going on that has you just going, yep, we need to look at it. We need to talk about it.
Emma (02:27)
Hmm, that is a good question because there are many. ⁓ For me, I think it always starts with the nervous system and how resilient someone is to their surroundings. So sometimes that won't always come up in blood pathology. So it is for me energetic, but also through storytelling. So what are they telling me those symptoms for them?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (02:53)
And when did you first start noticing that pattern and bringing back to your article about libido? When did you realize that that isn't actually the problem, it's just a messenger for a deeper underlying problem?
Emma (03:09)
Yeah, absolutely. So I was doing a, I think I've always seen it, like even as a beauty therapist, I couldn't understand it from a, you know, anatomy and physiology kind of perspective or chemistry or whatever. It was literally the same thing women would come in and be like, ⁓ I'm so stressed out or I'm tired or I'm busy. Like we were wearing a medal for being busy. ⁓
Sarah Jordan-Ross (03:36)
Yeah.
Emma (03:37)
But as an early 20 year old, I was like, okay, yeah, sure. But never really understood the capacity of what one can hold. So whether that be if you're a business woman working 70 hour weeks or whether you kids, five kids, two kids, one kid, whatever, that resilience changed. And I saw it when doing massage and facials and getting to spend that one on one time with someone and hearing.
what their life was like, what their environment was like, what their sleep was like, you know, and I didn't get to see bloods. I didn't get to see testing at that stage. So I have always seen it, but I could never really understand it until I became a mom myself and have lived this period of life too. ⁓ When you go through Menarche, you are prepared for somewhat, well, I mean, our generation probably didn't prepare us as well as
Sarah Jordan-Ross (04:22)
Yeah.
Emma (04:33)
our generation is going to and that's what happens with generations. We know better so we do better so it's not anyone's fault it's just what what's happening and what continues to happen and these cycles that we want to break but or change or or up level really. So we we've been given an idea about Menarche you know we know what it's like coming into having a period and that first time and okay now we've lived that and then we come into
Sarah Jordan-Ross (04:41)
Yes.
Emma (05:02)
Well, now we actually want to have a baby. So we have to prepare somewhat. We're better at now than we were. And then we have a baby. Absolutely. And that could be a whole podcast unto itself. And then we have pregnancy, which in my opinion, we don't do enough around. And then postpartum, which we are definitely doing better, but have room for movement. But then there's this gap of
Sarah Jordan-Ross (05:09)
Yeah, still a long way to go.
Emma (05:30)
Okay, well we've had our babies. We aren't quite old enough to be going through menopause. So what are we doing? Like what is this gap? And I've seen it more probably because I'm 37, like I'm into this next phase. My body actually knows I'm not having any more babies. But what I like to coin the last ditch effort of trying to have a baby is this phase coming into perimenopause.
I'm torn. I'm torn between my age group, you know, 35 to 42 and us thinking, oh, I'm in perimenopause. No, I'm sorry. I disagree because your bloods actually don't show me that. Follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, estrogen, progesterone. They're the ones that we look at briefly. Then you have something like DHEA and SHBG, which are kind of other
important hormones but precursors. So when we're looking at follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, those two hormones that instigate that follicular phase, so that first phase in our cycle, is where things start to change. It's like this last ditch effort to have a baby and your body's like, let's ramp them up, let's ramp up these particular hormones so we can get estrogen doing its job and then maybe you'll want to have a baby. But it kind of
backfires in this environment we live in when we are sometimes in a phase of life where you're raising children and they're coming into this preteen teen phase. Then you're here not being needed or us here not being needed as much as when the child was five or six or seven, you know, when they're little and they're so dependent on you.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (07:25)
And
they need you for everything.
Emma (07:29)
Yes. And then you're like, okay, am I living my best life right now? Am I doing what I want to do that lights my soul up? And often I hear that that's a no because you've either been a housewife or a stay at home mom, which is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But your soul can only do that for a particular time. And there's such a small minority that's happy to do that for the rest of their life. Right. So when we're looking outside of that minority.
I say this, that not every mom is happy to be a stay at home mom all the time. So are they fulfilling their purpose? And then you've got older parents that are probably in nursing homes, probably going through dementia, health conditions, which is a rock and a hard place really at the end of the day when your own hormones are shifting. So it's like, we need to do it earlier. Whatever's happening,
in this perimenopause space needs to be done earlier. So in this space that I'm in and which is what I'm seeing, sorry, I went on a tangent there, I kind of had to paint a picture, but it's this age where we've come out of being the be all and end all for our children when they're little and we've depleted ourselves. So we're in mum depletion.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:38)
That's okay.
Emma (08:52)
And then the hormones shift because we know we're not going to have babies. So there's this psychological thing happening which has an on-foe to this pathophysiology. And then we're like, okay, I'm not perimenopausal, but why do I feel like shit? Like, why do I not feel right? It's like I haven't felt well since. Something's not quite right. That's what I hear all the time in this kind of 35-ish, 42, always room for...
Sarah Jordan-Ross (09:09)
what's going on.
Emma (09:21)
outside of the box, but this is just a general gauge of age that we need to put back into women. women come to me and you know the things that they say to me that they want as their top health goals, it's losing weight and it's having a better libido. And I think to myself, those things should not be the top. You know, those are symptoms.
not having a libido, weight gain, their symptoms, just like a cough, a broken leg, a runny nose, whatever. And that's what we need to come back to is.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (09:54)
Yeah. Because
that's your body telling you something isn't right. And I know when you were talking and you said that age range, now straight off in my head, because I'm a little bit older than you. And I went, well, I was 37 when I had my first baby and 40 when I had my last. And now I'm...
I'm 50 and just quietly perimenopause is actually kicking my ass but I'm getting on top of that because somewhere along the Lion Island to listen to that something isn't right so figure it out and do something about it. But not everyone has has that. So how do you go about talking to those women that are in that space of
Their body is clearly telling them something's not right. They're wanting to address those symptoms. But how do get them looking at what's going on underneath?
Emma (10:51)
Bloods is one of the easiest ways to start the ball rolling. Checking hormones in blood pathology is okay. It's not the gold standard because the blood will buffer and it doesn't and there's delays and there's, you know, things that are going on. Functional testing like saliva or urine testing for hormones is the gold standard and gives us a better understanding. I...
Because we don't always have hundreds and hundreds of dollars in this climate to spend on testing, and I'm very respectful of that, getting a starting point is better than not having a starting point at all. I am a very realistic naturopath. I lived in the real world. I am not perfect. Sometimes I to eat junk food. There's things that I feel like people can put naturopaths on pedestals, like we are the ones that are doing everything perfectly.
I just want to say that's not true at all. We fail just as much as anyone and that's life. Human! my goodness, yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (11:50)
Shock horror, Emma's human.
She likes chocolate just as much as the rest of us.
Emma (11:58)
Yes, absolutely. Hot chips is for me. I don't know. I think the saltiness. Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (12:00)
I'm like, yeah.
Yeah, that's the thing.
Even those of us who are in that space and do know, we still have our moments where we don't get it right or as I've seen lots of times with therapists and you can feel free to agree with me or not, we're our own worst enemy in that we spot those things going on with other people.
And if somebody else was sitting across from you telling you exactly the same symptoms that you have, you'd know straight away what to do. But when it comes to you, you don't always see it.
Emma (12:44)
Yeah.
It is easier to tell someone something, but when you've said it so many times and it becomes the way that you live, it actually becomes really easy to fall back into alignment, you know, or choosing better things to eat, knowing that I have to have a better sleep routine. ⁓ All of the things that make it a holistic health. And that's what this is about is
Sarah Jordan-Ross (12:59)
Yeah.
Emma (13:11)
I was putting together some work in the Women's Wellness Festival for last year and I was working on this particular space and I coined this term ⁓ monarch rising because there seems to be this gap that's missing. have this menarche, know, then we go into... ⁓ Now I've lost my words. Menarche into... ⁓
matriarch than then we've got monarchs a monarch rising, you know into this perimenopausal kind of stage and and I was like this This is a time that we really need to come back to foundations Just like we were preparing for a baby. You're preparing to have hormones change yet again and We just don't have enough of that. So having this change
checking pathology, checking where you're at now and then having something to compare it to. So when you generally will go to the GP and ask for hormones, one, they may not do it, but two, they'll be like, you're not old enough for menopause. you know, and then, but they don't understand the importance of seeing references. So comparing you now to comparing you 12 months ago when you felt somewhat okay, because things can change quite quickly and you can feel it.
lot of women feel it in their mental health seems to go first before the bodily things change, whether it be hot flushes, know, vaginal dryness, things that we don't talk about because, you know, patriarchy, right? And then it's you're like, am I, is this right? Am I feeling this? You talk to your other friends and you're like, yeah, maybe I have had that. So it's this awareness, bringing awareness to.
what we can do and pathology does give us a space to do that and checking things like cortisol. What is our morning cortisol doing? What's your cholesterol doing? Do we have enough of it in this day and age where cholesterol is like don't, hey you don't, don't have high cholesterol. Well sorry cholesterol makes your sex hormones and it also helps function your brain. So let's look at what that's doing. Okay if it's really high cool then maybe there's something going on with your liver.
and you're not able to process it as well. ⁓ What's your antioxidants doing? We need that like B12, folate, brain health. Like there's so many things that can give you answers in the early days when you're not feeling quite right, but your hormones probably look somewhat normal.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (15:53)
And there's always that it's all interconnected and if one part of the system is slightly off then it's going to have that knock-on effect because nothing happens in isolation. You even said that in your article that libido doesn't rise in isolation. There's got to be all these other things happening at just the right time to make all the bells and whistles go off.
Emma (16:13)
Yeah.
Yeah. And that's comes down to the day to day life too. Like, I feeling valued? Am I doing what I love that fills my cup up? Because if you're not topped up and you're not feeling valued and respected and then why would you want to turn on that, that, ⁓ that most natural feeling in your body? A lot of that gets switched off because in fight or flight, your body goes,
Sarah Jordan-Ross (16:27)
Yeah.
Emma (16:53)
sorry, you can't reproduce. I'm not gonna give you any of those happy hormones to make you wanna get down and busy because, sorry, you can't make a baby right now. And that's at the end of the day why we have those hormones. We have those hormones to increase libido to go, ⁓ now it's the peak time, get on it. But fight or flight, having a nervous system that's not gonna give you space.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (16:55)
I took that.
Emma (17:22)
To do that is not going to give you the libido. So you have to reverse engineer what you're feeling and fix those things. What's your love language? I don't know. Have you ever done your love language before? Do you know much about it? Yeah, okay.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (17:36)
Yep.
Yeah. yeah, so there's the five main ones. It'll be touch, time, gifts, words of affirmation, acts of service. Yep.
Emma (17:49)
of service.
Yes. that really, feel like, yeah, sure. So you know, physical touch, probably you had more of that libido or were more open to that libido, hence everything going correctly. Now hormonal changes, maybe for you that's changed. And you're like, wow, that's different.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (17:54)
I'm a massage therapist, mind's touch.
And I've also, I've stepped away from working in that clinical space as well and currently I'm doing the at-home mum thing that I've never actually done before. And when you were talking before it's like, yeah, it's not always the most comfortable thing. Granted, I was 35 when I got married, 36, nearly 37 when I had my first baby.
I'd been working for a long time and I'd been working in middle management and management roles. Work Sarah had her shit together. I knew what I was doing. I could function in that space in my sleep. I probably did sometimes. But this tiny baby did my head in to start with and I found I was better being
a mum when I still had that space where I was me. And now that I've shifted and I'm not in clinic for a number of reasons but I've still found those things that yeah I'm mum and I love that that I'm able to be more present with them or connected with them know what's going on with them that I'm here for dinner with them every night.
that sort of thing that I couldn't always do when I was working. But I also started a podcast. I still read research articles. still study, that sort of thing because I need to keep that. I need to keep doing those things that top up my cup.
so that then I'm better able to pour from that cup. I'm better able to give them what they need because I'm managing to keep my nervous system regulated and that's not always easy either in these crazy busy lives that we lead and
so many people. You see it as a naturopath, I saw it all the time as a massage therapist. During chronic fight and flight cortisol levels are through the roof. Your body doesn't know how to turn that switch off and it has that knock-on effect of affecting every other system.
Emma (20:41)
Absolutely. I laughed the other day I saw a meme actually that came up on or a reel that came up on Instagram and it was about the love languages and mine is generally acts of service or quality time and ⁓ it was basically our husband and wife having a hug and she says that her ⁓ love language is
acts of service and his physical touch. it like it read something along the lines of no, no, no, very, very G rated ⁓ was basically saying, you know, his love language is physical touch. Yet here I am and the dishes are still in the sink. And she's just like giving him a hug and is like rolling her eyes like, this done yet? And it just made me think that
Sarah Jordan-Ross (21:17)
Why am I scared where this is going? ⁓
You
Emma (21:38)
Sometimes those with physical touch as a lot of love language and those with acts of service, you know It can be it's that's what my husband and mine are and and we have to come to this Kind of agreement or this arrangement. We're not arrangement. That sounds like it's written down on paper It's not but just from understanding where we're both coming from to meet both of our needs So you may not even see that in a blood test, but it's this is what I mean by your environment Do you have to?
always mow the lawn and wash the dishes and put the clothes out and your other half doesn't do as much of that physical load, how can you switch on that part of your brain that says, get down and jiggy with it when you feel like you've got the things on the list, right? So it isn't just about perimenopause. It's not just about blood pathology, nutrient deficiencies, albeit that's super important.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (22:22)
when you're still thinking of all the.
Emma (22:36)
But we also need to look at our life, like are we happy? Are we fulfilled? Are we valued? Are we respected? Like those in conjunction with each other gives you a better space to be able to be your best self, whether it be in the bedroom or not, you know, anywhere.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (22:54)
anywhere,
everywhere. Because that's what we kind of, that's what we deserve is to have that full complete life where we are being our best selves across the board. And if we're not in one area, chances are we're not fulfilled in others as well.
Emma (22:58)
Everywhere, yes.
Yeah. And that's a scary part. That's the hard part. one really wants to do the hard work for is changing your lifestyle. It's hard. I that's not meant to be putting the hard word on anyone or making you feel judged. It's literally just it's the reality of it. You want to feel better. You have to change things than not just take pills. You know, it has to be a whole body approach.
if it needs, if it's for longevity. And again, I'm not perfect. I take the supplements because there's some things I don't change, but it's having the awareness, doing more when we know we can do more when we know more. And that's that, that's the, that generational cyclical pattern that we're beginning to see and, wanting to adjust. So was our grandmas and our moms barely spoke about any of this. They just got on with it. Let's just do it.
But now the world's changed and we have more things working against us that we have to be outspoken. We have to talk about it because we need to change it now for our children.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (24:29)
Because if we don't, there's going to be another generation of girls who go through all of these stages thinking that there's something wrong or that they just, they're not prepared. They don't know what's gonna come at them. ⁓ I'll use a personal example. I went through puberty very young. I was 10.
I'm the youngest of five girls. My sisters had all been slightly older when they went through Minnate. So Mum wasn't expecting to have to explain it to me for another year or two. So do you remember an old movie called My Girl where she comes running out of the bathroom screaming her head off thinking she's dying? Yeah, that was me and it was because
You don't talk about that stuff until it's necessary. And then, ⁓
I suffered terrible morning sickness. had HD from conception to delivery with all my kids. So did my mother. So I followed her pattern, but until I actually got pregnant and started going through it, we'd never actually talked about it. And then what was really interesting,
Emma (25:41)
ceremony.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (25:57)
My mum was also going through cancer treatment when I was pregnant. And they ended up giving me the same anti-nauseants that they were giving her. say, okay, you're giving me anti-nauseants that you usually reserve for cancer patients. Should I be scared? They are the best thing ever, by the way. But I don't recommend anyone needing to have them. But if you do...
Emma (26:09)
Thank
Yeah.
Yeah.
They did the job.
Yep.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (26:26)
They did the job. And now going through perimenopause and menopause, because again, one of those things, you just got on with it. You don't talk about it, you just go do it. And there's so many things that I'm noticing that it's like, I have to stop and ask.
Is that a perimenopausal menopausal thing or is that something else? get to what's going on because so many things like the aches and pains, the sleep problems, the itchy skin, so many of them can be other things as well. it's the got to get down to what's really
going on and the just throwing hormones at it is probably not going to help if I don't also get my stress levels under control or because I have gained a little bit of weight. Partly because I'm not doing seven massages a day anymore. It's like yeah I'm not moving as much as I used to so
Emma (27:26)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a change on your body.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (27:41)
There may be that essence of, well, get off your butt and move, as being part of the picture.
Emma (27:46)
Yep.
Yep. But it's also like, okay, well, how can I improve the sleep? You know, am I getting enough protein? Am I having regular bowel movements? And these are the things that I talk about with my clients all the time is it's all the other things that are your day to day symptoms, I guess, ⁓ that do all add up.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (28:11)
And you mentioned it too, that sometimes the blood tests will come back normal or that you're in normal ranges and there's not always that where were you 12 months ago. So you do it when, yeah, your blood say you're normal, but you know you're not.
Emma (28:33)
Yeah, sometimes hormones will be normal. There'll be other things in the blood that I'll go, okay, well, this could point to this symptom. Usually, you know, nutrient deficiencies or liver problems, low antioxidants, you know, those kinds of bits and pieces. So it's not, I've not seen anyone's bloods and been like, whoa, you're done. Like you actually fine. ⁓ But their hormones look to be okay. One, because I don't have reference, but ⁓
Sarah Jordan-Ross (28:53)
Yeah
Emma (29:03)
You know, thyroid can really play into that as well. ⁓ How will you digest your food? Because if you're not digesting, you're not absorbing, then you're to be nutrient deficient in some of the really profound ones. But then.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (29:16)
I'm beginning
to think naturopaths like talking about poop.
Emma (29:20)
Yeah, always. If I haven't talked about
poop with you, then I'm not doing my job very well.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (29:24)
I
was on Zoom call this morning with another holistic health expert and yeah she's slowly becoming known as like the poop queen because she talks about it all the time. suppose it is a very clear, very honest evaluation of what's going on in your body but again it's one of those things that
Emma (29:50)
Yeah, it really is.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (29:53)
We don't talk about that. Except for if we have small babies and we're talking about what their bowel movements are.
Emma (30:01)
Yeah, yep. So you get used to talking about poop in early motherhood.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:05)
Yeah, very much so. And then for some reason we stop.
Emma (30:11)
Yeah, yep. And then you know it's interesting when people don't look at their poo. I think it becomes very normal for me to be like, what does my poo look like today? So when I'm asking, know, have you noticed the texture? How in undigested food or length or color or is it floating or is it sinking? Like that actually means something. Whereas people are like, my gosh, I've never paid that much attention. And that's not your fault.
It's just not something that's in your wheelhouse.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:38)
No.
Yeah, not something that we talk about or that we tell people is a good idea outside of certain circles.
Emma (30:48)
Yeah.
Yep,
good old poo chat. All of the things.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:55)
See, I told you we were gonna talk about all sorts of stuff that
we don't usually talk about.
Emma (31:01)
Just for anyone
that's listening, the ideal poo is a poo that does half sink, half float. Just so you know. And as brown as it can be.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (31:11)
Yes, with nothing that looks like it doesn't belong in it.
Emma (31:12)
Take more.
Yes,
that's right. And most of the time people's poo won't look like that. It's actually very rare to have the perfect poo.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (31:23)
Yes.
Yeah, the long sausage shapes. Yeah, doesn't happen all that often.
Emma (31:32)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (31:32)
I'm just trying to decide which way this conversation should go.
Emma (31:36)
Yeah, well, I'll go anyway.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (31:40)
So getting back to your article that got me to call you and say, hey, you need to come on my show because I want to talk about that. ⁓ Why do you think women's experience of desire and their disconnection are so often either minimized, you're just stressed or medicalized that it's a problem and we need to take a pill, do a surgery, whatever.
Emma (32:09)
Yeah, that's a good one. I think because we've never really been open about talking about one's sexuality, you know, we've kind of gone the other way and we talk about everybody else's way that they want to identify as whatever person, which is fine. But never have we been okay to be like, ⁓ I enjoy sex, we look
I look forward to sex. I don't feel like sex. Why? Like that's just not something again, a lot like perimenopause. We just don't talk about it because it's always been taboo. It's always been, that's something that happens behind closed doors because that's how we were raised. That's just how it's come before us.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:58)
Yeah. And it's not... Yeah.
You're not one of the Sex and City girls. You're not supposed to be out there talking about it all the time.
Emma (33:07)
God, I love that show. Yeah, absolutely. That openness to say what I like, what I don't like, you know.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (33:09)
Me too!
Yeah. And to explore it and that to be okay.
Emma (33:22)
Yeah, exactly. And it doesn't have to be amongst people if you don't want it to be, but it should be with the person you want it to be with, right? It doesn't have to be open. I'm not saying you have to go and make a reel about it or talk on social media about your sex life, but it's being honest and true to yourself about what you want to make, what makes you feel good. And that should be open for discussion.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (33:33)
Yeah.
No.
Emma (33:49)
especially when the other person is also equally getting that. It may not need the workup, may not need, I mean, I'm generalizing, but if some things are easier for the others than others, you know, and it has been, I'm pretty sure it has been, I heard a number and I think it was like 20 minutes, it takes a woman to get in the mood, whereas men, can just like turn it on. It's just like,
Sarah Jordan-Ross (33:56)
Yeah.
Emma (34:17)
they're ready to go. So that's not you being broken and you can't just switch on your bits to do their jobs. know, lubrication is a process of the brain. You know, there's lots of different feedback loops, lots of things telling each other part to work. Am I feeling safe right now? Am I feeling valued right now? Is this something that I want to do? You know, there's so many moving parts for women.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (34:27)
I
Yes.
Emma (34:46)
And that's just the way that it is.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (34:47)
And if you're not feeling safe, if you're not feeling valued, if you're if you're thinking about the 50 gazillion other things you still have to do, or you're annoyed with your partner because he hasn't done something that he said he was going to do, vice versa, then those switches aren't going to get flipped. They're not going to get, you're not going to get each one.
kicking off the next thing that needs to happen.
Emma (35:19)
Yep. And I'm not saying all women feel like this or all partners feel like this. It's just when, and I just had this thought just now that it kind of is the patriarchy's fault, right? So they wanted us in kitchens. They wanted us to do housewife things. Think about birthday presents and what kids are doing. Like we had the list to do and they went to work and they did their list at work, right? So we've grown up to be doing all this list at home.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (35:42)
Yep.
Emma (35:48)
But now we're the ones that get, ⁓ I guess, put down in a sense for not being up for it and being able to put out as much as someone else might want us to because we've been ingrained in the generations before have told us all the things that we should be doing. And now we've got this other side that we're thinking, no, we actually do want to be in control of our sexual health and and
doing what we want to do and no that feels good no that doesn't feel good so it's it's really this juxtaposition of having to do it all which I don't believe is possible. I don't think we are built to do it all. There has to be some sort of compromise because otherwise it's that how are you today? yeah good but busy. Like you're wearing it like a damn medal like no we need to stop doing that.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (36:44)
Yes.
Emma (36:45)
that's the shit that gets passed down to our daughters and and sons that we have to be busy you can't just be still and know what you want what feels good you know what i mean
Sarah Jordan-Ross (36:59)
Yeah, that you have to be on and performing all the time, that you can't just sit and be. And that's not what we were designed for. You look at every system in our body, it has those times when it's on and doing stuff, and then it has those times when it switches off and lets something else run the show. And we kind of need to be like that too.
Emma (37:05)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (37:28)
We don't necessarily want to take anyone else's load off them or dump our load onto anybody else, but we need to be able to say, hey, my load's too heavy, I can't carry it all, can you help me? And that be okay for us to admit that I can't do it all. And better yet, I don't want to do it all.
Emma (37:51)
Yeah, and that's something that we're also not good at.
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (37:56)
But so often there comes that shame attached to...
I should be able to do x, and z. My mum did, my friend did, whatever.
Emma (38:08)
Yeah, Sharon on the internet, she did a really, she seems to have 75 kids and does it all. Well, that's the worst part about social media, hey. The highlight reels, yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (38:15)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's the highlight reel.
Because yes, everybody puts up their things to celebrate the things, congratulate themselves on the things that make them feel better. Nobody puts on... I had a really shit day because I was dealing with... Pick a problem. Pick whatever. My kids chucking a temper tantrum. ⁓
Emma (38:44)
That's
Sarah Jordan-Ross (38:52)
My husband wants something yesterday. ⁓ My boss wants something else 20 minutes before yesterday. And I'm sitting here going, well, what? We don't talk about that sort of stuff. We only ever highlight the good stuff. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. There is a lot of good stuff out there.
And we need to be looking for it and highlighting it when it's there, but we don't need to be using it as a weapon against ourselves. That comparing and the, well, why can't I do that when everybody else can? Probably not everybody else can. You just see them at their best. Yeah.
Emma (39:40)
what you want to see. Yeah, exactly.
And then when we're looking at this rise and fall, which happens with hormones too, is that there is a designated time in your cycle that is going to be, let's have a baby, you will feel a libido increase, but you won't just feel libido increase. It'll be like the day you've decided to do the washing and the mowing. I'm going to go for a walk. I'm feeling really grateful. And
those are those hormones doing that. That's that rise. That's the follicular phase, right? You ovulate and then everything comes down after that. It doesn't, shouldn't come down so hard that you've hit depression because then that's an abnormality. But it's also, it's also the fact that we as women live in a 28 day 32 kind of cycle.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (40:25)
That's another problem.
Emma (40:36)
Men live in a 24 hour one and we cannot and should not compare because we cannot do that. Our bodies can't do that. So yes, there are going to be days of your cycle, whether you are menstruating or not. You know, it has been shown that in menopause, still have the highs and the lows, but they're just not as significant as when you are bleeding or when you have ⁓ a normal menstrual cycle. So, you know,
from day 21, if you're feeling off, then you hold space for that. shouldn't be expected to be the same person every day of the month. And I'm not talking about like massive highs to massive lows. It's just you can have feelings and have emotions and we're not supposed to ride through them and just forget that they mean anything. We are human beings.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (41:22)
No.
Emma (41:34)
and need to have those human being experiences and that is on the clock. That is a 20, 28 day kind of clock. The moon.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (41:41)
Yeah.
Yes.
that hey, it moves the ocean, so why wouldn't it move us too?
Emma (41:51)
Yeah. Yes. And I feel like the one way you really notice that is in children. I think being such, you know, beings of the universe, as woo-woo as that sounds like. Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (42:02)
They are so connected to
everything around them and what's going on. Yes, I have friends who are primary school teachers who they hate windy days because it sends the kids off the planet. My mum was the clerk of the court and I knew quite a lot of policemen at one point in my life too because of that. You want to know what day of the month they hate?
Emma (42:15)
⁓ yes, I have heard that one.
Yeah, full moon. Yeah, all the crazies come out. Well, you just know that from being in retail. Yeah, if you work with people, retail, like anything, you just be like, ⁓ must be full moon today. It does. It makes you feel off.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (42:33)
full moon. Because quote, brings all the crazies out.
Yep.
Yeah, on a day when...
Yeah, because so... Can't quite put my finger on it, but something just doesn't feel quite... Quite right. It's all out of kilter.
Emma (42:57)
Yeah.
Yeah. At the end of the day, really, we are souls having a human experience, right? So there's things that we just don't understand and I don't think we'll ever understand. But when you, yeah, when you are looking at both, and I love that that's what I do well, is able to see outside of just a blood test.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:09)
Maybe not this side of heaven.
Emma (43:21)
and see that human experience and that energetic side and being able to work in with them both. And I understand not everyone as probably as we were as me, but it's that's the whole person when you're treating someone like that's when you're looking at symptoms and how you're feeling, you have to engage both sides. Otherwise you're not treating the whole person.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:35)
Yeah.
No. And those things don't have to be, there's so many things in life that we say have to be at either or, that you look at this thing or that thing. I've always been more a both and. I think a long time ago we possibly had the conversation of if you take the best of allopathic medicine and put it with the best of complementary therapies.
and the best of natural holistic health, we'd actually have an incredible system of healthcare because where one has its weakness, the other has its strength. So rather than cancelling each other out, they can prop each other up. But we don't always like looking that broadly. It's like, no, you have to have science or art. can't be... You're both. But...
Emma (44:35)
Yeah, so true. And that also
needs to be spoken about. Like I wish more of both sides worked together because medicine absolutely has its place and it probably sounds like I'm very anti-hormones and things like that. I'm not. They definitely have their place, but it's like you have to work on the other things. So medicine will really shift the needle, but it's not going to correct what's happening.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (44:45)
Yeah.
everything.
Emma (45:05)
⁓ and hormones like they are supposed to decline. We aren't supposed to have the certain amount of hormones our whole life, but how they transition can be rough. And that's the change and that's the shift. If you need hormones for a particular time, absolutely. But there are side effects and things aren't always as they seem and you don't always get told the things you should be told. If you're
Sarah Jordan-Ross (45:16)
Yeah.
Emma (45:33)
having a massive shift in hormones, example, other symptoms, it's because other parts of the body aren't processing correctly. What is the liver doing? What are the neurotransmitters doing? You know, this is where it has to be. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It can be both. It just has to be done correctly with the right people. ⁓ I've been through my own mental health journey and ⁓
my ego was taken down a massive shift when I had to go on SSRIs. It was the last thing that I wanted to do and I feel like I'd failed myself when I had to take them. ⁓ But to me, I thought, you know what, I need to do this because I need to see what my clients see and the struggles that they have. I believe that we go through things to be able to share a certain space, you know, and
For me, was like, okay, did I do the right things? Do the things that I could have done leading up to needing to go on meds? Probably not. Was I listening to my advice fully? No, probably not. Was I in a part of my life that wasn't serving me? Yes. Okay, the universe showed me what I had to do and I had to change my life. Like I stopped working. I quit my job. You know, I literally did very little because I couldn't.
hold, like I had no capacity. taking medication at that point to regulate and keep a quality of life is important, but then I had to do the other work, working through the trauma, working through grief, working out the burnt out nervous system, you know, changing what wasn't aligned with me. Like it was a full picture, but I said to myself, I know I will come off this medication because I will do it.
I won't get stuck on it and have their nothing change and be stuck on it 10 years later and still not feel my best self I refuse to do and that's what I mean. There is a place always for something it just needs to be done correctly.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (47:45)
And thank you so much for sharing that because again that's an experience that a lot of women have of the... I don't want to go on meds because I don't want to get stuck on them and not necessarily...
helped to navigate that experience. So hearing it from you would be really helpful. And I'm loving that you're already answering some of the questions I was going to ask, which is always fun. Because one of the questions I was going to ask you was around about hormone replacement therapy and that sort of thing. Because a lot of women are told, go on them.
Emma (48:14)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:29)
but there's also women who are told, you can't have them so you just have to cope. Now, I'm thinking from a naturopath perspective and the holistic person that you are, as with a lot of things, the truth of that is somewhere in the middle of
Emma (48:48)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:49)
it's not always going to be the right thing, it's not always going to be the wrong thing either. So how do you help people see, how do you help people navigate that of the do I need to go on hormones or any other medication or is there something else I can do or does it need to be a combination of yes go on medication but also do the work. Don't just think that popping that pill is going to solve everything.
Emma (49:14)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, to give you a specific, have a client at the moment and she's around my age and she's literally been bleeding nonstop for quite some time. the blood like the, her cycle has changed and her mom and her sister also went through really early perimenopause and had hysterectomies and things. And she didn't want to go down that route. And because she's a bit more informed and
aware that that doesn't fix the problem always. ⁓ That, okay, well, we could take an organ out. Sure. ⁓ But you have organs for a purpose, right? So yes, you don't need to use them the same way anymore. But why are the hormones shifting so dramatically that your body can't handle it? And what's going on with your uterus, your ovaries, whatever? Let's look at that. How much time I would say to someone
how much time are you willing to put into this? Because yeah, doing it the natural way can be slower ⁓ and we have to be realistic. I see people when they're really tapped out, you know, they've been to multiple GPs and they're just not really getting answers and their only support is like, well, we can either put you on the pill, we can give you the hormone replacement or we could just do a hysterectomy.
or maybe an ablation or something if you've got adenomyosis or something less dramatic than hysterectomy. And I go, okay, no, no, not at all. But I also appreciate like living with brain fog, depression, anxiety, bleeding can be so detrimental to your health and waking up in the morning can be a hard choice. So I kind of
Sarah Jordan-Ross (50:52)
None of them sound like fun choices.
Emma (51:13)
I can't give them the answer, like they have to choose it on their own and I will be there to support them however and I try to give as much information as I can. I'm no expert in all of the different hormones one can take. I am aware of them. So I would probably send them to someone or find out a little bit more about the specific hormones they've been told to take first. ⁓ But I would say, look, for me, I would be working on XYZ. So that might be
reducing the blood flow, which we can do with herbs, ⁓ which I have got this woman on herbs and her bleeding has actually stopped. you know, we can use herbs, can, thank you, we can use hormone adjusting herbs. like something like ⁓ peony or peony or chaste tree or, you know, that helps to balance estrogen and progesterone. We throw some chisandra in there maybe for some liver.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (51:54)
done.
Emma (52:11)
support to help detox these particular hormones ⁓ while also being an adaptogen that's nice on the nervous system. it's like how much time can you give me or give yourself to work on XYZ? And sometimes that can be a good three months to make a significant difference or some shift. Some hormones and some symptoms are really hard. But then if someone's like, no, I can't do it. I just need to do something now. Okay.
Sometimes these hormones are not your magic bullet and I'm sorry. Some people don't notice a huge difference. Some people get negative symptoms like their mental health may get worse before it gets better. Sometimes it can really affect digestion. You might get some bloating, diarrhea. Like I try to give a full picture, but I would never tell someone, don't do it. ⁓ Maybe unless it was, you know, if I had a sister and maybe I was that comfortable to be like, don't do it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (53:00)
Yeah.
Emma (53:09)
But there would be a reason behind it. It's not just because I'm anti hormones. It's it just doesn't solve the problem. But for a time where we go, let's use this, let's give it a try. Does it make your quality of life better? OK, it did great. Let's keep working on these things in the background and then we'll start to taper off those hormones. And then you take one off and you build one up. And this is what I did with my own medication like.
your body is being shunted into one direction, whether it be SSRIs, hormones, that's what pharmaceuticals do. It's going to give you an isolated compound shunted to do a job. Sure. Sometimes that is what gives you adverse effects because your body doesn't do that. Your body doesn't just go here, keep serotonin here, keep estrogen at this level for this long every single day. Right? So
Sarah Jordan-Ross (54:04)
because it fluctuates according to where it needs it.
Emma (54:05)
It fluctuates. Yes. Exactly.
So it's good. It will push you in one direction and give you a pro or a con. But then we do have to negate what else is happening or look at how could we teeter? We can take that down and build you up here and clear this out and fix this and up this protein. It's yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (54:29)
So it really
is about integrating that whole picture and not just focusing on one symptom or even a collection of symptoms, but looking at what's going on across the board and remembering that those symptoms are your body communicating with you. And sometimes listening to that can be tricky, especially when in perimenopause.
We're already going through those changes that sometimes make us feel like our body's rebelling against everything that we want to be doing. So for one example of mine, it's weight gain thing, I had been the same size and roughly the same weight from when I was 12.
till I was 47. Okay, yes I'd gotten heavier during pregnancy but not that much because all the weight that I gained when I was pregnant was baby weight. But now I'm the heaviest I've ever been including when I was pregnant. So I'm heavier than I was when I was pregnant. And I'm not doing that many things differently but
There is obviously something going on in my body that's triggered off that slow and it didn't happen overnight. It slowly creeped, which is why I didn't clock necessarily how much it was until then. It's like I'm actually uncomfortable.
Emma (56:06)
noticed it as much. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (56:14)
And
that's the thing I think a lot of us, we either get disconnected from our bodies, we're so busy noticing everybody else and doing everything for everybody else that we don't notice what's going on ourselves, or we know our body's talking to us, we know it's trying to tell us something, but we do that, yeah I'll take care of it later, or I don't have time for that right now, or that's just how it is, I'll just keep going with it.
Emma (56:40)
put everyone else first.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (56:41)
Yeah.
So if you had somebody who was listening and they're feeling completely disconnected from their bodies, they don't really recognize themselves anymore. What's one gentle place you would start like that first step they could take towards feeling a little more at home in their own bodies again?
Emma (57:04)
Hmm, that's a good question.
I would say that choosing one thing every day that lights you up that actually makes you feel good. Whether that be calling a friend, putting some music on, going for a walk, like whatever lights you up has to be done daily. ⁓
Sarah Jordan-Ross (57:15)
Yeah.
Emma (57:29)
Because I feel like if your soul isn't feeling replenished or topped up, like how can you just do everything else? And I, know, yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (57:41)
And you're certainly
not going to have any level of desire for your partner.
Emma (57:48)
Yeah. Yep. You can't pour from an empty cup. think you said that before. It's just it's so true for women. And I know there's always the talk like I have to do this. Right. I've got to you know.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (57:54)
Yeah.
Emma (58:03)
clean this or make this or you know you don't have to.
Yes, work. I understand, work pays the bills. But... If you didn't have any bills...
then you could do what would you be doing? Would you still be doing this? ⁓ And I know money seems to make the world go round, but at the end of the day, you don't have your health, you have nothing. So easy things that you can do is take 15 minutes and put your feet on the grass. Like grounding can be a huge shift.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (58:13)
Would you still be doing it?
Yes.
Emma (58:41)
for your nervous system, especially if you work in an office around lights, know, external environments that really trigger you. Outside sunshine, drinking good quality filtered water, getting your body moving somewhat, doing something you enjoy, ⁓ getting enough protein, which is actually one of the hardest things for women to do. But starting the day with a good breakfast, not your coffee.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (59:05)
you
Emma (59:10)
those foundational things actually will be better than any supplement really can. And then you can work down to the nitty gritty bits and pieces, but ⁓ do something today that you love to do and be grateful for that. Because if you don't know change, nothing changes until something changes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (59:32)
if nothing changes.
Emma (59:34)
So we can
keep going around and thinking we don't have enough time, we don't have enough money and you will never have enough time and you will never have enough money. You have to make one small change. And you just have to sit down and figure out what that is for you.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (59:47)
And remember that what it is for you may not be the same as what it is for me.
Emma (59:54)
Absolutely. And that's okay.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (59:56)
Yes. What I've been hearing over and over is that, like through this conversation but also in others, that it's all connected and desire isn't something that we can summon by force. It's like you can't make yourself feel what you're not feeling but you can get yourself into a state where
that desire is more likely to happen because you have been paying attention, because you have topped up your tank. Because you've put your body into a space that it feels safe enough that it can respond that way. Or you've recognized when your body's naturally in a state where it can do all the things that you want it to do. And that's listening to your body. Really listening.
Emma (1:00:54)
tells you everything you need to know. really does. And then speaking to someone that it can help you decode that, decipher what's actually happening. ⁓ But innately, you know better. You know what your body needs and what it doesn't need. It's just, yeah, that one change.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (1:00:57)
Yeah.
We sometimes forget to trust that innate wisdom that our body does know what to do when we give it the things it needs to nourish it and do its job.
So we just need to start listening and that's very much the heart of Taboo Talk is naming those things that we don't talk about not to shock or provoke but to restore that dignity that connection that listening.
remembering that we're all connected and we can all help each other in one way or another. Emma, I want to thank you for your honesty today. It's been fun talking about all things perimenopause and poop and desire and probably a few other things in there too.
Emma (1:02:07)
Thank
It's been a pleasure.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (1:02:12)
So if today's conversation resonated with you, if your body's been trying to tell you something, know you're not broken, you're not alone. I'm Sarah Jordan Ross and this has been Taboo Talk. Until next time, take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and remember.
Your story matters so share it because you never know when it's your story that's going to be the thing that helps somebody change their lives.
for now.
Emma (1:02:46)
Thank you so much.