What makes an experience stay with us long after it's over? Often, it's not how impressive it was—it's how deeply we felt seen, included and connected. In this thoughtful and unexpectedly vulnerable conversation, Sarah sits down with immersive performance specialist and TEDx speaker Terence LeClere to explore human connection, belonging, play, imperfection and what technology may be revealing about what makes us uniquely human. Together they discuss why we remember how people make us feel, why reaching out is a sign of survival rather than failure, and the power of asking someone a deceptively simple question: “How are you, really?”
As technology becomes increasingly polished and predictable, Terence believes our messy, spontaneous and imperfect moments become even more valuable.
The things we may once have tried to hide—the stumble, the emotion, the unexpected reaction—can be exactly what creates genuine human connection.
Terence's work in immersive experiences has taught him that people don't just want to watch—they want to feel like they matter to what is happening.
When people are invited in, included and made to feel valued, an ordinary moment can become something they remember for years.
Through his work designing experiences for major brands, Terence has noticed something simple underneath all the sets, technology and spectacle:
The moment people remember is often the moment another human made them feel like they mattered.
Children naturally walk up to other children and ask, “Can I play?”
Adults often lose that ability.
Sarah and Terence explore how play creates connection without needing an agenda, transaction or outcome—and why creating spaces where adults feel safe enough to be curious, silly and open can be transformative.
In one of the most vulnerable moments of the episode, Terence shares calling a crisis helpline and initially feeling ashamed that he'd needed to.
He later realised something important: the part of him that reached out wasn't giving up—it was the part fighting to survive.
“Everything that I thought made me bad actually makes me human.”
— Terence LeClere
“The reaching out is not failure.”
— Terence LeClere
“How are you? How are you really?”
— Sarah Jordan-Ross
Sarah Jordan-Ross (00:00) Hey everyone, welcome to Taboo Talk, the podcast that breaks the silence, fosters hope, and talks about the tough stuff so you never feel alone. If you're new here, I'm your host, Sarah Jordan Ross. I'm a wellness coach, speaker, and I believe that our stories have the power to connect us in ways we don't often expect. Now today's conversation will begin with a question. Why do some experiences stay with us long after they're over? Not because they were spectacular, not because they were expensive.
But because for a moment we felt part of something. And I've been thinking a lot lately about what makes us feel connected, what makes us feel like we belong, and what allows us to feel safe enough to actually show up as ourselves. And also about the difference between simply being present for our lives and actually actively participating in them.
My guest today has spent years creating immersive experiences for some of the world's biggest brands. But the more I learned about his work, the more I realized this conversation isn't really about events at all. It's about human connection. It's about what allows us to move from simply watching life to actively participating in it. Joining me today is immersive performance specialist and TEDx speaker, Terence LeClaire.
terence leclere (01:25)
Hi.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (01:25)
Terrence, welcome to Tabry Talk.
terence leclere (01:26)
Thank you, Sarah. Glad to be here.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (01:29)
Yeah. Now before we dive in, I like to start with this question for just about everybody. What is it that you've seen in the world that now that you've seen it you can't unsee it and what does it make you want to do about it?
terence leclere (01:46)
I love that question right out the gate. my gosh.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (01:49)
Yeah.
terence leclere (01:52)
you know, that's it's I love this question because it's it's about awareness. And that's what I think immersive experiences are effectively activating in people, is just this awareness of what moment are you in right now? What are you experiencing right now? What are you immersed in right now? And so, gosh, that's really great.
Me personally, what I've seen, especially, I've been thinking a lot about this actually with technology. we live, I mean, I'm I'm a Gen Xer. We live in the future, you know, right now, right?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (02:30)
So am I.
terence leclere (02:31)
excellent. Yes. Yeah, we it's the future for us, right? Where there's you there's robots and we have robot friends and we talk to robots and we have robots helping us do things. And
It's not like we pictured where there's actual like automatons walking around, but it's it's the it's almost like everything, much like we could anticipate the cloud, you know, and just the understanding that information would be something that's not necessarily tangible. It's it's just an intelligence that exists once it's activated, much like our you know, senses once we become aware of something, all of a sudden it exists.
Just intelligence is somehow like that too, where information, especially now is so easily accessible. with robots, bots and AI becoming so ubiquitous, like everywhere, right? it's revealing these aspects of humanity that I think were taken for granted, or just not even noticed because they're so subtle.
And I and and what it speaks to for me is is just this what was understood as like maybe imperfection, right? you mentioned my TEDx talk, and in it I mentioned how I came up as an actor. And when you're going to acting school and conservatory, a lot of acting teaching can be very results oriented in terms of crafting a perfect performance. And even then.
I felt there was something inhumane, well, inhuman about it, really. Because I thought, well, if if I just end up crafting the most perfect performance in the world, what is that idea of perfection? It can be easily duplicated. It can just, it's then, you know, what what are we doing here? There is, you know, there's something else going on. What's this imperfect human moment of like, blah, like, didn't think I was gonna do that, right?
Natalie Portman does that in Garden State. I love that. Where it's just like, this never happened before. What I'm doing right now, you know? the discovery of just the things that, you know, are just inexplicably human are becoming more and more noticeable now. especially in the digital space, where it's like, now you got perfect videos and perfect everything. And
It's like, okay, well, what's what what does that illuminate? An actual human-to-human connection. It's like, wow, this this is interesting. When I'm talking to like a real person, like right now, you, it's almost like we can go anywhere with this conversation, and and we will spark ideas in each other. And who knows where it will take us? but we're two, for lack of better terms, souls, basically.
Role playing in these human
Sarah Jordan-Ross (05:40)
Yeah.
terence leclere (05:41)
bodies, just this interaction, right? Of just, you know, podcast host, guest, and here we are. But there's something, there's that soul, again, lack of better word, that awareness, that attention, is it's something that as hard as AI developers are working to get that correct.
I
don't know if if it's something that can be translated in something as like a predictable language model. But anyways, so that's the thing that I've seen that I can't unsee. It's just everything that I thought made me bad actually makes me human. And maybe that's exactly the point, as opposed to, I shouldn't show this to people. You know, ooh, I messed up that word or I did this or I did that, or my hair looks a little
Interesting right now, you know. that's all me. And I that's you know, how cool is that?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (06:43)
There is something absolutely beautiful in the fact that most of us humans, we're perfectly imperfect. And as you said, that's what makes us human and that's what makes life so amazing is that we are unpredictable and we see things completely differently to someone else based on what our experiences have been and
Our personalities. Like I know I have three children
and with most things. I have one who he's right in there. Give him something to do and he's he's at it. I have another who he he sits back and he he watches for a minute and then it's like yeah, I I wanna do this. And he'll he'll go. And sometimes my little one
Sorry, excuse me. We had his experience at at Disneyland when we were there recently on our trip. He'd gone on a roller coaster at Santa Monica and because he was a little it it threw him around a little bit and he at one second thought he was gonna fall out. He didn't, but it was just that was his
terence leclere (08:02)
Ooh. Scary. Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:05)
first experience of of a roller coaster. And he was adamant.
He wasn't going on roller coasters at Disneyland, but we did manage to convince him and we went on on a few. And you ask him now what his favorite ride at Disneyland is. It's the Matterhorn. Which Yeah, it's this
terence leclere (08:29)
Yeah. That's a pretty intense one too. Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:34)
giant giant mountain. And you're in a bobsled.
Inside the mountain, it's dark, you go really fast. We get to the bottom of that. It was also the last ride that we went on, but we got to the bottom of it and he's all again again
terence leclere (08:49)
Ha ha ha.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:51)
And this is the child who was adamant I don't like roller coasters.
terence leclere (08:56)
that's so great. You know, I and
Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:58)
Yeah.
terence leclere (08:58)
turned it around. Well done.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (09:02)
So but we could have done that okay, you don't have to go on them, we'll go do other other things, but it was like no, we'll go on it as a go on them all as a family.
terence leclere (09:16)
I love that. There's a
Sarah Jordan-Ross (09:17)
And they all
got to choose the rides that they wanted to go to on. So
terence leclere (09:23)
good. Yeah,
I got i I love the analogy of rides. I tell a story about how I was driving cross country many years ago and it was one of those moments where I'm in the car and I'm just driving, kind of zoning off. it was back when there were C D players and cars and so CD was playing the album and then the album ended and I kind of just, you know, became aware. It's like, yeah, I'm driving and I noticed, there's snow. Little snowflakes are coming down.
And so I kind of pushed the brakes a little bit, you know, which is so funny how like as human when we we respond, you know, almost in ways our body, the everything was going fine, but then the mind jumped in and was just like, I I know what to do. I'm gonna push the brakes right now. And so I pushed the brakes and all of a sudden, bad move. I the car started swerving and I and I just more and more tried to control it and it just spun around and it spun and it was like terrifying.
And it was one of those highways where there's, you know, one is going one way, one's going the other way. And there's a median in the middle, just like a little kind of valley. And so the car kind of spun and it just slid down in that valley and then it stopped spinning. And I was like, Okay, we're good. We're good. car's okay, we're okay. No one died, it was fine. And so just drove off. And I realized at that moment that.
The only difference between that happening and an amusement park ride was just the the knowledge, if I had known that everything would have been okay in that moment, I might have been like, woo, you know,
Sarah Jordan-Ross (11:04)
Yeah.
terence leclere (11:05)
right? but instead
Sarah Jordan-Ross (11:07)
Yeah.
terence leclere (11:07)
I thought, you know, terrifying thoughts. And so I just was very tense and ended up in the middle. And it's that idea of just
You know, taking chances, right? understanding what if things are okay affects your experience of the current moment right now. So it that's wonderful for your son, you know, because rather than live with that experience of fear, got he got over it by going, you know, on a new ride. And it's this thing I'm
Passionate
about, I call it the IRL project. and I've got links for it in my Lincoln bio. it's about approaching life like an immersive experience. So, what that does is it activates this sort of benevolent universe idea. is a quote attributed to Einstein that says the most important decision one can make for themselves is whether to live in a hostile
Or friendly universe. And so like the hostile universe would be like, no, I'm in the car, it's gonna crash, I'm gonna die. or something horrible is gonna happen. I was very lucky, nothing bad happened, but and what it illuminated was this idea of like, well, if you don't actually know what's gonna happen, an extreme is like, woo, everything's great. but it's it's more just the idea of just
being present in the moment with the situation that's happening. yeah. And so that's after designing all these immersive experiences over all the years, I noticed that the way we approach life is very much could be approached like we're in one of these plays. Like I we said earlier of us role-playing these different characters. You know, what if you're in the show of you and what if this is what's happening next? and if it is a show that was designed for you, then
The person who designed it likely wanted you to have a good time, wanted you to enjoy it, you know, wanted you to have fun.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (13:17)
General. Yeah.
terence leclere (13:18)
Like somebody who designs a roller coaster are usually not into creating torture machines, you know, they're into creating something that's gonna make the people have thrills and spills and chills and and say, Wow, that was amazing, that was great, versus, you know, the latter. So, so yeah, this is this is.
Such a wonderful illustration. And I'm so happy that now he he built a core memory and he's gonna go on to like take chances. So that's wonderful.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (13:50)
Yeah. I suppose in some ways that was like him not wanting to do that, because he's usually the
terence leclere (13:55)
Hm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (13:57)
He'll watch for a second and then he'll he'll jump in, but him being adamant that he wasn't and now that he's shifted back to that yeah, I'll give it a goes Yeah, you mentioned sorry, go ahead.
terence leclere (14:06)
That's amazing. That's and yeah. Sorry.
No, no, just humans learning how to be humans, right? That's
Sarah Jordan-Ross (14:15)
yeah.
terence leclere (14:16)
see a theme here.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (14:18)
Yes.
So you mentioned a little bit about immersive experiences. Now for somebody who's watching and isn't familiar with
terence leclere (14:30)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (14:30)
your work, how would you describe what you actually do?
terence leclere (14:35)
absolutely it's great. So I'll take you through it. I came up as an actor, and so everyone knows plays, everyone knows theater. I started doing more shows where the audience member, you know how you break the fourth wall in plays and you're talking directly to the audience member at home. I was doing more plays that were doing that. And so all of a sudden I'm talking to the audience member and guiding the audience member through these imaginary scenarios and right.
Just creating this moment for them of the play, which is what happens when actors do plays. and more and more that became known as immersive theater, but it's something that's been around for a long time. I mean, there's great examples like murder mystery plays and things like that, or great examples of just you, the audience member in the story, you're talking directly to characters, you're you're a part of the story. And I would take it a step further and say you're absolutely.
necessary and pivotal to the story, unless it's a situation where you're like a fly on the wall. but still it it gives the promise that if it's an immersive story, the point is for you, the audience member to be immersed in the story, in in the experience of it. So
Sarah Jordan-Ross (15:53)
Actually feel like you're part of it.
terence leclere (15:55)
yeah, yeah. And necessary to the experience. So that's also why I love the concept of immersive experiences. It it it it
illuminated a lot for me about how you as an individual matter to the experience that you're living in. If you weren't there, then who would be experiencing from your perspective? And ultimately that's what we get to share with each other. You share with me like what's been your life up to now. And I'll share what's been my yeah, what's been my experience from here, from from inside this body, this is what it's been like for me, you know?
and that's what we do as humans in all these different ways. Gosh, you know, books, plays, movies, films, art, podcasts, life coaching, like just it's just humans getting together, figuring out how to be human together. So going.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (16:46)
Making meaning of things.
terence leclere (16:48)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. finding, yeah, understanding. Like I I say in my again, the TEDx talk that, you know,
From my first memory I can ever remember, it I had the sense of being aware, right? I think we've all had these moments where you're like, I'm here. That's okay. Look, these are my hands. How interesting. and so, like having that at the age of three, I wanted to share that with somebody and just be like, go up to my dad, my brother, and be like, what's going on here? Why are we human? What you know, it's a very interesting perspective. And all that to say, it it it really.
showed me that when when we're immersed in the moment, the thing that happens is we become aware that we exist. And then we want validation for this existence. We want to know that wait, I'm here. Are you are you here too? We're we're here together. Are you how is this not strange to you that we're here existing in this life right now? How you know? so it's very fun. So got a little off track, but for immersive experiences, that's effectively that. And so now they're they're
they happen across the world in in so many different ways and technology's played a big part in accelerating the idea of what an immersive experience can be with VR and video games certainly and because debatably anything is an immersive experience if you're immersed in it. which
Sarah Jordan-Ross (18:20)
Yeah. True.
terence leclere (18:22)
you can get very meta with that and I do love getting meta with things.
But yeah, so so it's become, particularly in marketing, where my company's worked with some amazing brands and great people, to create these experiences for fans of shows or fans of different brands and different intellectual properties, IPs, to show up and and step into the story, which gives them a a sense of being rewarded.
That's what like I mentioned before about immersive experiences, they can't really happen without you being immersed. So you inherently feel rewarded, you feel valued, you feel validated because you have people there at these immersive experiences that are like, you're here, come follow me, or things like that. Or you're simply invited to a thing where you step into a world and the world was built for you.
I mean, they built the sets, you know, ultimately, you know, it wasn't, you know, you could you could break it down. Was it for a promo shoot? Was it for this? Was it for that? I mean, sure, but ultimately it was for you. It was for you to experience it, to be immersed in the experience of it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (19:49)
Actually there's a difference between just going to something and actually
terence leclere (19:54)
Hm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (19:54)
being a part of it. And that was something I noticed again on our on our recent trip was that that sense of creating spaces and inviting that participation. So we were at a baseball game and we'd never been to one before, weren't exactly sure what to
expect but one of the things that I loved was that they put the words for the Star Spangled Banner up so everyone
terence leclere (20:27)
that's nice.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (20:28)
could see them. They put the words for take me out to the ball game up so everyone could see them. Now
terence leclere (20:35)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (20:36)
for an Australian okay I'm unusual. I do know both version both verses of the Australian national anthem. I also do know the Star Spangled Banner.
But my kids don't. So
terence leclere (20:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (20:50)
them actually being able to to read it and sing along with everyone else actually
terence leclere (20:56)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (20:56)
allowed them to be part of that experience as opposed to standing there going, Well everybody else is doing this, but I'm not exactly sure what I'm supposed to be doing. I don't know what the words are. And ending
terence leclere (21:09)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (21:10)
up feeling uncomfortable because they felt like they didn't fit. Whereas it was like, hang on, they've made space for me to actually
Participate and actually be part of it, not just stand here watching everybody else and wondering what the hell's going on.
terence leclere (21:26)
That is brilliant. You said earlier about why experiences stay with you. And I think that's exactly why is, and that is the work that my company does with these brands is we work on what I call interpersonal dynamics design. And so it's that people interaction of where to find opportunities for people to help people feel like they belong. because as humans, we calibrate our experience through other humans, you know.
Like everyone else is singing there, you want to be singing with them. Otherwise, you feel left out. when we go to a party, we look for the person that invited us, or that we somebody that's familiar, somebody that knows what's going on, and you know, such as the lyrics. it's it's really interesting. Yeah, it's there's
Sarah Jordan-Ross (22:15)
Yeah.
terence leclere (22:15)
a Maya Angelou quote that just I is the most perfect quote for this kind of work, which is the people will
Forget what you said, forget what you did, but they'll remember how you made them feel. that's that's what makes experiences stay with you. because everybody wants to feel like they belong. Everyone wants to feel like they're doing this right. Being a human being, am I getting it right? Am I, you know? it's it's such an amazing opportunity. I think of that. For every event that exists, there's an opportunity to make a
human feel like they belong and feel valued and feel like they matter. And that's something that the world needs desperately now, I feel.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (23:04)
Yes, we're all starving for that connection
terence leclere (23:06)
Mm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (23:06)
and that sense of Yeah, being connected to each other and also being part of of something and that sense of belonging. And I love Brene Brown talks about how belonging and fitting in are not the same thing
terence leclere (23:21)
Mm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (23:22)
because one of them asks you to change who you are to fit with everybody else
terence leclere (23:30)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (23:30)
and the other makes space for you to be
who you are and doesn't expect you to be anything else.
terence leclere (23:38)
I love that. my gosh, that's so good because it's it's it's about meeting people where they are, right? I noticed that too. an example is I was doing murder mystery shows, right? And and a lot of it involved and sometimes to crowds, hundreds of people. And so I'd be like cold approaching, meaning like walking up to, you know, groups, you know, sometimes, you know, five, six people, sometimes individuals, sometimes couples, sometimes but just
Thousands
of people I must have done that for. And I learned and noticed that when you do that, you you need to really, if you go in and you're like, I'm the character, you know, some people will be like, okay, the show started. Other people will say, whoa, what's going on? You know, it's it's just too much, right? It you can't do that. You have to really meet the people where they are. And and then you're you're basically facilitating their experience of what's happening.
Is what's really happening. And so that was, I mean, this goes back like gosh, 15 years or something. But it's it's learning how to facilitate other people's experiences was a precursor to me understanding this whole like, it's really just your immersive experience of life. It's really just yours, which is what we specifically work with. And it's so true. Some experiences will ask for people to change, and maybe you know, that's because they wanted to play a character, want them to explore being different parts of themselves.
But I think it's most powerful when it's approached with the sense of understanding who's the person being immersed, what's their experience, and how do you how do you understand that experience in order to guide them to where you would like them to go? So yeah, it's it's I love that. Gosh, that's a great quote by Brene Brown.
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (25:35)
She's written some incredible things.
terence leclere (25:37)
yeah. Yeah. She I I think I no, I'm thinking of someone else. I think it's yeah, but that's anyway. Yeah, she's a basic, yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (25:50)
Same. I ha I have lots of quotes jumbling around in my head and sometimes
terence leclere (25:53)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (25:54)
I accidentally attribute them to the wrong person, but more often than not not.
terence leclere (25:57)
Yeah. Isn't
but isn't that wonderful? Gosh, we're like in in like swimming in an ocean of just knowledge and information and we're all learning from each other. It's so funny, you know. I was like thinking about this a lot. Just I love that your podcast is called Taboo Talk because and I was just thinking of like taboo, taboo, and it's just the whole thing. And you know, I was thinking a lot about
Expertise and like imposter syndrome and all these things, and just like, you know, like revealing too much about not knowing things. And it's really interesting because it's a human imperfection, and and there is this element to just everybody learning from everybody, the very nuances from everybody else. even as a the you can see some instruments in the background. I play music and
It was so funny because earlier today, just this random music video about somebody was talking about how there's this idea of going to the bands that had the original sound and listening to those bands as Gen Xers, I know this is very important to us. But then why do younger generations want to listen to bands that are basically doing their version of what the earlier bands were doing and all that? And
It's interesting because it's this evolution of just wanting to
Experience an idea of something that's told through a lens that might be the lens that the person is looking for. which is it's such an interesting thing. I always believed that conversations were the most profound form of just teaching, just individual conversations. And it's like it and it's going back to that experience of.
What is it like for you to be a human? What is it like for me to be a human? And within that experience, which is profound in itself, and this is what I think AI is revealing is what is this thing of just our conversation, us talking, we are solving things for each other, and continuing our quests for knowledge together, and just what it means to be a human, what we're interested in.
Rather than just
limit that to an idea of what we believe the perfect version of something might be. All that to say, you know, it's all I I say, you know, keep learning from everyone and all always be learning. but it's it's not to discount the experience of maybe being led
Onboarded to the threshold of a new concept or idea of something that you didn't know before. And then you go study and you're like, I I see where I see where Terence got that idea from, maybe, or I see where he's thinking of this or that. And but that's an interesting take that he's got. Something like that. Taboo, getting all taboo. Yeah, shh, we can't talk about this stuff. Can't talk about it. Taboo. Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (29:26)
Yeah. And that's part of why I Yeah.
And that's part of why I called it that Like the first thing that came into my head was shit we don't talk about because so much so many times we go through so much and feel like we're completely alone in it because we don't talk about it. But then when
terence leclere (29:51)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (29:51)
we actually start talking about it, we realise
How connected we are, how many other people are going through, if not exactly the same thing, very similar experiences, and that there is so much more that connects us and unites us than there is that divides us. And if we actually focused on that, then we might actually change things. And the
terence leclere (30:21)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:22)
the not talking about those things.
doesn't actually help. one of the things that
terence leclere (30:28)
Yeah, it's so true.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:30)
prompted me to start the podcast was actually several conversations that I'd had. I was a remedial massage therapist for 25 years. And the thing I'd noticed in clinic was so many people were talking about very similar experiences. And the common thing was feeling they were completely alone and isolated in it, that nobody else really
Got it or that there was only certain people that they could talk to about whatever it was that would understand and they wouldn't have to explain everything in in depth that they could just go blur and somebody would actually understand it. And it's like, well, you're all telling me the same thing, so you're not alone.
terence leclere (31:13)
Hmm. Wow.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (31:16)
And then I was driving somewhere and a song came on the radio that I hadn't heard for years, a song called Whiskey Lullabi.
that's actually about suicide, but the the line that stuck in my head was Nobody Ever knew.
And it's like, yeah, nobody knew what she was going through because she didn't talk about it. And maybe just maybe, had she talked about it, things would have been different.
terence leclere (31:47)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (31:48)
So I came
home and said, I'm starting a podcast so we can talk about all that stuff.
terence leclere (31:53)
I love that. I love that so much. I mean, I know I clean up well, but gosh. Even earlier today, just it it amazes me. It amazes me with all the technological advancements, how
emotional intelligence feels like all the emotional advancements just feel like where is all that stuff? and and why is it you know like life coaching and things like that people will you know or or like I'm on so many platforms and so many things, you know, and and it's sad that a lot of wellness gets sort of like put in this category of
woo-woo and and just kind of it needs to be scientific. that's okay. That's that's broad. science is great. but what science does is it categorizes things and emotions are are are you know fluid and and it's just such a different thing. And gosh, yeah, I I love that you've opened this up here because this is so, so so important.
To talk about there's a lot of shame. I know I feel a lot of shame, feeling like I can't share all the sad thoughts. That's the thing. People have a business, you own a business, you do all these things. You're you sometimes expected to just be like a strong person, expected or whatever the definition of strong, you know, or you just it it's it's presenting this this
Side
of you that's again that perfect that perfect thing of just like indestructible perfection. if that's what business is, then you know robots are going to be the next CEOs. It's already happening, you know. it there's gotta be something else. It's because
Humans are messy and emotional. And sometimes if you're if you don't pay attention to that stuff, it catches up with you. and and and there's nothing to be ashamed of. Nothing to be ashamed of. it's taboo talk. I'll share this story. I've never really shared this publicly before, but I remember the first time I called for a helpline, a crisis helpline, and I thought
That
the act of me calling it was failure. I thought, now I'm one of these people. I'm one of these people who has these dark thoughts. Okay, you know, shame on me. but it wasn't until I was on the line with the person that I realized that no, that was in fact the the the the voice of survival that wanted to call.
That was the the that was the voice that said, it's gonna be okay, you know. so so the the reaching out is not failure. and it can be really scary to reach out, but now more than ever, there are places that you can reach out and get get a human being. Because
Sarah Jordan-Ross (35:26)
Yes.
terence leclere (35:26)
we we love talking to our bots, we love it, bots, woo-hoo. And it's it feels safer because.
you know, feel like there's no consequences or things like that. which is so funny because as an actor, I have this theory of why actors become feel safe as actors, is because you have the stage, you have this thing called the magic circle where you can step in and be a messy human being and not be judged for it. In fact, you get prizes for it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (35:57)
Celebrated
for it. Yeah.
terence leclere (35:58)
Celebrate for it,
you get rewarded for it. And so, how could you not want that? It's the one place where people feel at home. A lot of actors say, Yeah, it's the one place you're allowed to be a human being, free from consequences. And of course, there's consequences in the world that makes a lot of sense. But I'm speaking to just feeling things and
And so I get why people want to talk to bots. I get why people feel safer speaking to like something that they feel won't judge them. But there is something that happens between humans that's, you know, at this moment right now, I don't think we've fully defined yet. I don't think it's it's like, you know, it becomes all about energy and waves and things, you know. But yeah.
There's something that happens. and that's why it's so important that it's another human, even if it feels like you know, scary or or or shameful or or just like they're judging you. And like I've been in Zoom rooms with therapists where I'm like, they're bored. They're literally bored at me right now. But there's something that happens, there's an accountability.
There's
a primal animalistic, because we are, you know, lest us we forget, if that's
Sarah Jordan-Ross (37:30)
Yes.
terence leclere (37:30)
proper grammar, that we are humans, you know, we are animals. flesh and blood. like this is weird. You know, like this is, you know, like what are we trying to normalize here? Right. so there is a thing that happens between humans that is transformative.
In a way that we, you know, are getting to know. And AI is helping us illuminate simply by sheer contrast. And I think that's secretly why I've always been like why I became like so focused on interpersonal design. Like just because I'm like, I've seen countless events where I'm like, that's the thing, that's the thing that transforms him.
It's like, but what about that set? They spent a million dollars on this set. Yep, but it's that person. Yep, it's that person that talked to that person. That's that moment right there. you talk about Disneyland. Gosh, there was this viral video of last Christmas, right? Where it's Disneyland. It's Disneyland. Okay, there's like millions of dollars spent on like all this amazing stuff, but there was this one guy.
Who was dressed as an elf and he had a clipboard. Cost of clipboard, 10 bucks. Cost of pen, 10 bucks. Costume, you know, it's probably all of that. A few hundred, whatever. And he was going around and he's like, What's your name? It'd be like Mary. It's like Mary. Naughty. And just like check, you know, and everyone would laugh and everyone was having a great time. And I'm like, that's the moment. That's the moment. There's one human pretending to be an elf.
The people there weren't like, wow, that's an elf. No, they were given suspension of disbelief to immerse themselves in the moment. They were given permission to play like an actor, permission to just explore. And it was one human making another human feel seen, sharing an inside joke with them. That's the moment. That person's gonna take that with them the rest of their lives. And who's all the people who are watching that video on TikTok and everything? Those are humans. Those are humans who saw that and got it.
There's a reason why like the most viral videos are videos of humans talking, you know? It's it's very rare that there's a like viral video of like you know, maybe it's a gorgeous house and that goes viral or something like that, you know, but like it's some I I've yet, you know, we're we're gonna see what happens with AI and stuff like that. Where we're it's gonna be really amazing for a second, but it's it's human connection is what it's all about, is what I'm trying to say.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (40:18)
And AI is great at adding to that connection
terence leclere (40:22)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (40:23)
and making us see where connections are, but it cannot ever take that place of that human to human interaction and that connection. We are hardwired for connection. We are we are herd animals as a as a way of being.
And sadly, in so many ways we have lost that in that we don't have like closely knit family-based communities as much anymore. Like once upon a time you would have had several generations of a family all living close together and all helping each other out and all connected.
in that way or I know when I was a kid, if my mum needed to run to the shop or something, the next door neighbor would keep an eye on us. Or if I was playing in the street playing in the park across the street, I was allowed to go between these two specific I think it was a tree and a a rotunda. I was allowed to be anywhere in that space. It was only as an adult that I figured out that the reason for that was my mum
or my friends, mum who lived down the street. Either one of them or both of them could see us as long as we were in that space.
terence leclere (41:55)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (41:57)
Whereas now
We don't necessarily know our next door neighbours. We don't have those strong connections that we once did.
And we've lost our sense of of community and of connection.
We're so much doing everything all by ourselves.
And wanna touch on something that you mentioned before. We've forgotten how to play. How
terence leclere (42:34)
Mm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (42:35)
to just so is it that that's part of why actors love it? Because they just get to play and get to see the good and fun in somebody else. And
terence leclere (42:52)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (42:53)
like the Disneyland, the the guy.
Walking up in an elf costume like and giving yourself permission to play. And I know
terence leclere (42:58)
Yeah. Permission to play. Permission to play.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:03)
my little one we
terence leclere (43:05)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:05)
were travelling and he was sort of missing school, missing his his friends and those kind of connections, but we were we're at a pool and he's just walked up to these other kids that are playing and
terence leclere (43:17)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:18)
asked if he can play.
Whereas sometimes us adults.
terence leclere (43:26)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:29)
Can't that. Can't just walk up to some random stranger on the street and strike up a conversation.
terence leclere (43:34)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:38)
Or But we'll send an email to somebody we've we've never met, or we'll
Yeah, we'll have chats with our our AI bots about all that sort of stuff, but we in some ways we take ourselves too seriously. But yeah, we've
terence leclere (43:56)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:57)
lost that connection and that ability just to to play and to connect and to to interact
terence leclere (44:03)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (44:05)
without it becoming transactional, without us actually wanting anything from it other than just to connect to another human.
terence leclere (44:13)
Yeah. Gosh. yeah, you said it so well. It's it's that's so true. Because in play, there's no when you're playing a game, it's fun and you it's meant to be something you explore together, or you just it's it's like you you understand you have an agreement that you're playing, that you're you know, so it's kind of like, this is a game and so so it's it's a joint
it's like a contract with the other person where it's like hey we're gonna we're gonna do this ideally fun thing together and it's funny that like as we grow up it's you even using a word like contract right now like what kid would ever use the word contract when flying but it's it's so true it's it's it's you know it's it's gosh it was I heard this quote about how it's not that time speeds up
When you're an adult, it's it's that the possibilities, you know, get narrow and narrow because you you're like putting all these safety guardrails and all that. And so rather than just exploring the world like a magical place and full of play. But I think that's why this the the this the industry I work in is is booming because it's it's they're experiential.
it's meant to be you're given permission to go experience there. and you know, so it it it's connective, it's active, it's and all the things that we talked about, it makes people feel seen and welcomed and like they belong. And it's almost like you know, you're you're you're given permission to play, and everyone who's there knows that.
contract of just play, right?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (46:08)
I
terence leclere (46:09)
Of they're all in agreement that it's we're gonna do that. spaces like that are very important, because it's true in many ways. unprompted, it's scary. and it's almost societally, you know, we're told against, you know, just going up to people, stranger danger, and for very valid reasons.
And so, but it's it it is confusing, you know, like I mean, gosh, as a kid we were all told, you know, strange or danger, and then that kind of becomes part of our thing. And then but then it's just kind of like, well, where does it apply? And you know, like, and this this is a we're hitting on some lots of good stuff here, Sarah. This is really good. yeah. And taking chances and just like going on the roller coaster one more time, you know, all these things take bravery.
And but they take, you know, it it's it's humans helping humans, like, you know, s to saying, Hey, yeah, i you know, I
Sarah Jordan-Ross (47:12)
Giving it Yeah. Giving each
other permission to to be silly, to be curious, to to question
terence leclere (47:22)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (47:22)
and also to say, Hey, I don't have all the answers but maybe if we sit down together we can work out.
terence leclere (47:34)
Sounds like a great game.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (47:36)
Yeah. Yeah. Solve the problems of the world one problem at a time just by connecting with each other and saying, Hey, what do you think about this?
terence leclere (47:48)
Isn't isn't that the whole point? That's the whole purpose,
Sarah Jordan-Ross (47:51)
Yeah.
terence leclere (47:52)
right? We just w none of us got the onboarding instruction manual, but I think I think you just hit on what the purpose of this whole immersive experience called life is.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:05)
Yeah, is that figuring it out together and that we don't have to do it all alone.
terence leclere (48:14)
Yeah. I love that.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:19)
Yes. And it's amazing the things we can create when we do it collectively too. Now you've worked with some some big brands.
terence leclere (48:28)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (48:29)
Now, I don't want to know what the biggest project was, but what was your most meaningful one? What was the one that you went, Yeah, that's that's what I'm here for. That's that's what I do. That mo has there been a moment in your career where you've gone,
Wow, that's what people can do when when they feel safe enough and like enough like they belong to actually really connect to fully engage and let themselves be immersed in whatever that experience is.
terence leclere (49:05)
Gosh, there's just several things come to mind. one is actually a show that is a show that my wife did. and it was one where the audience members, I have this vision in my head. the audience members, I got to be a part of it too. This was really great. This goes back about 10 years almost, something like that. but it it was
It was one of those moments of just seeing how transformative this work can be. Because the show was would take the answers that the an audience member would write down answers to questions. and then we as a cast would take those answers and turn them into an immersive experience for them. And so they got to feel seen in a way that was so intimate and profound, as imp as profound as they would allow themselves to answer.
Which is always the case, you know, like you you you really get what you give in a lot of these places. And it's not to say, give it your all. It's no, just like what what you're willing to share, then people will be willing to respond to or be able to, because like you said from that song, you know, s otherwise they may not know. And so, so that was a really special show. and it it made me it reminded me of that.
there's this one gosh, so many, so many experiences with my company. But one in particular that jumps out at me is this we got to work with this amazing marketing agency that worked with Peacock to create this immersive experience for Saturday Night Live, the 50th anniversary. And you you know Saturday Night Live over where you are, I'm sure. Yeah, you heard of it.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (51:01)
Yeah, we get it.
terence leclere (51:03)
So it was like 50th
Sarah Jordan-Ross (51:03)
Yeah.
terence leclere (51:03)
anniversary and that was something really special. gosh, I was born in France, but I remember moving to New York when I was nine years old and and and it just my parents worked in television. And so I don't know, somehow ended up with this like t shirt of Saturday Night Live. and it was John Belushi on it. And I when I wore it to school, all I didn't know what it was at the time. I was pretty young and I would
Wear it to school, and all these people that never talked to me before would say, I love that guy, I love that character, and and felt like, okay, this is something really special. And then I watched the show, and then of course it was just like became a part of my life. And I just seeing people's careers build through it over the years and what an institution it was. That really rewards humanity because it's it's it's a show that's kind of based on the idea of we're doing this live. You know, it's not perfection.
I laugh every time somebody's like, well, it's gotten not funny. It's like you're missing the point. It's it's it's like poodle on a tightrope, you know, like people are just excited to see what happens. You know, it's like look at them getting up there and look at them doing their thing and firing on all cylinders and how amazing. So so as an institution, what an honor to get to work on an immersive experience for them. And this one was for the 50th anniversary.
where they built out a set to look like Studio 8H. and the idea was that each guest got the experience what it was like to be a host on SNL. And so we cast and worked with actors that played stage managers that would go up to people and say, okay, Sarah, you're gonna be a host. you're going on in five minutes, come and follow me this way.
Okay, stand here. And and and the experience is very real because I mean, it it's a fast moving show. I've never been on Saturday Live, but seen a lot of behind the scenes footage. of just, you know, the host is like, okay, whist away and whist away and just, you know, when they have to give their monologue, they're standing there with the stage manager and and then they just get the, you know, go ahead to just walk through the door. It's like
Ladies and gentlemen, Sarah Jordan Ross. And then you're walking down the stairs and everyone's clapping. And and so there was a set that was built to for them to like walk out and the camera like captures them doing this. And all of this is fantastic. It's all wonderful.
What I saw was that the individual got to experience feeling seen and feeling valued and feeling important. I've got some cats. So feeling seen, feeling valued. There they are. yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (54:00)
Get in on the act too.
terence leclere (54:02)
Yeah, they want it absolutely, of course they do. Yeah. But yeah, so they that's what was really happening is
Because that's what people want when when they see celebrities, I think this is what they want, is they want when everyone says, they want to be famous. I think the aspect of fame that they most want is the sense of wow, you're important. You matter. Look at you. Let's celebrate you. You're a celebrity. We're gonna celebrate you. And each individual audience member that went through that got to be celebrated.
I think that's the very lead of the whole thing, you know, because really, you know, like it was like, yeah, there's like we you see some cool costumes, set pieces, like all fantastic. They all made the experience happen. They all made it an amazing experience. But that's what I was really proud of with the actors and working with them is really getting that sense of just like, you know, you're you're like making
The guests coming through understand and know how utterly valuable they are and important they are. They are the host of Saturday Night Live. You know, like wow. So treating everyone like a celebrity was the goal. And it worked. and and and so that experience was wonderful because of the institution, because the companies I got to work with and the people I got to work with were all fantastic.
it's something I'll remember for the rest of my life. it was it was a very special egg example of that. and it happens at all all the shows too, in some ways, because that's what I always focus on, is just like making the individual know that they matter, know that they belong. I'm kind of patient zero for this. You know, I was the French kid who moved to New York and
You know, it was like, you know, I'm Terrance. And people would be like, what the fuck is this? Who's this fucking guy? You know, didn't know what to do with me, wearing like a little blue velvet blazer. And I just desperately wanted to feel like I belonged and desperately wanted to feel like, you know, I'm doing it right, you know, and makes sense that I went into this line of work.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (56:27)
does. Most things usually do. And I think you you hit the nail on the head for for a lot of us. It's that it's not so much that we want to be famous as that we want to be seen. We want to know that we're valued, that that we belong, that we matter. And
terence leclere (56:46)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (56:47)
thank you for doing work that helps lots of people experience what it's like to actually
Know that you matter.
terence leclere (56:59)
Thank you. That means a lot. It's my it's my favorite thing. It's what I'm most
I won't say obsessed with, but I don't know. It's it's the
Sarah Jordan-Ross (57:11)
It's a good obsession.
terence leclere (57:12)
Yeah, it's it's I think it's it's possibly like the most important thing I could be doing with my time right now. Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (57:22)
And then as much as we could stay chatting all day and go down
terence leclere (57:25)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (57:26)
lots of different rabbit holes, there is one question I'd like to ask you
terence leclere (57:28)
huh. Okay.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (57:30)
before we finish up and that is what's one conversation you wish we were having more honestly?
terence leclere (57:41)
It's so funny because everyone says, Hey, how's it going? How are you doing? But nobody really answers. It's it's it's almost like expected. Don't answer that question. truthfully.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (57:52)
Or that you just say fine thanks.
terence leclere (57:54)
Yeah. because truthfully, there's the space that that question merits isn't often there with the question. You know? How's it going? Good. That's that's about the space that's there.
Versus, you know, we did I did this thing at this music festival called Electric Forest, where we built this sort of make-believe hotel and wanted to have a check-in desk. And I'm like, let's make it a check-in desk where people would come by, ring the bell. It's like, okay, welcome to the check-in desk. Let's check in. How are you feeling? How are you doing? You know. and it's funny because I I I did that as a pun. There were lots of puns. Like, we said we don't have water, we have complimentary light.
refreshments. and they're like, I'll take that. And so what we'd do is pull out some flashlights and go, You look amazing. You're awesome. You know, because they're complimentary light refreshments. So there with lots of puns. But what was really interesting is with that check-in desk, it turned into like a check-in desk where people would just talk and just feel like, you know what actually, you know, like I've been having a good festival or, you know, like I'm really excited about this, you know, DJ or
I'm not having a good time. I just broke up with my person, you know, like, and I'm just like, cool. You know, what was a pun turned into actual space for connection. but yeah, so that's a conversation I I think we could all use more of is is really that permission of just like you know, to talk. I know like this Simon Sinek talks about the eight minutes of connection or just that's the secret code that
he's got with his friend where it's like, you got eight minutes, because eight minutes is all you need to just get that sort of touch base connection feeling. And yeah, that's that's the conversation I would love to have more often and I would love for everybody to have.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (59:58)
The how are you? How are you really?
terence leclere (1:00:02)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (1:00:03)
And actually give people space to to answer it. Because I think so often as we go through life, we we ask that question, but we don't necessarily wait for the answer. It's like we ask it because that's what we're expected to say, not because we actually want to make that connection. And so because people are so used to that.
Then we just do that. Yeah, I'm fine, thanks. Whereas it's okay to say not. Yeah.
terence leclere (1:00:32)
And and I mean truth be told, yeah, yeah.
It's truth be told, like it's also if if the if if at least that connection happens, then that's something. But yeah, permission to go deeper. Permission granted. Yes. How are you really? Good.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (1:00:46)
Yes. Yeah.
terence leclere (1:00:52)
not so good. Well, you know what, Sarah? I'm doing a lot better now. So thank you.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (1:00:57)
Yeah. Good. Yes.
terence leclere (1:00:59)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (1:01:00)
'Cause it's it we're we're wanting to be connected to each other and I think that's the thing from this conversation that will stick with me the most is it's that those experiences that we remember, those experiences that impact us, it's not because they're loud. It's not because they're they're crazy and hypey and fun.
It's because within them we have those moments of truly being seen, those spaces where we can just be who we are and where we're at and that that's not just enough, but that that's actually celebrated and understood.
'Cause we've felt connected and we've felt that sense that yes, we belong. Yes, I'm important.
terence leclere (1:02:02)
I love that.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (1:02:03)
Yeah. So for
terence leclere (1:02:05)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (1:02:05)
everyone listening, I want to thank you for being here, for listening to us. If anything in today has made you think a little bit differently or challenged you or encouraged you.
Or if it's made you think, ooh, there's somebody I should should reach out to and ask that question, how are you? How are you really? Then we'd love for you to share this episode with somebody who maybe needs to hear it.
And we'd love to know how you are. How are you really?
So you can reach out to to me or we will put Terrence details if he's happy to or I can connect you.
terence leclere (1:03:00)
That's
so sweet. Yeah. Yeah, reach out. Gosh. I will say this too, like
It's it's it's getting like kind messages is the best. So always welcome.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (1:03:19)
Yes.
terence leclere (1:03:19)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (1:03:22)
Yeah. So if somebody does want to reach out to you, where's the best way for them to to get hold of you?
terence leclere (1:03:28)
Sure thing. Well, yeah, we could put in the show notes maybe like the link in bio and that's got socials. I talk about immersive a lot on TikTok, Instagram. And yeah. exactly. And
Sarah Jordan-Ross (1:03:43)
Yeah.
terence leclere (1:03:45)
yeah, finding me through there. It's it's a social connection adventure. Just find me, say hi. Yeah, and especially if you find me from this episode, let me know because
I think this was a really special talk, Sarah. Thank you.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (1:04:03)
I thank you so much for being here and for sharing your your wisdom and for reminding us that connecting with each other is what matters and helping each other be seen and for the reminder that you put in earlier in the episode if you are struggling please reach out and connect to someone anyone do not
for a minute think that you have to go through everything all alone 'cause you don't. There are people out there who care. You just have to reach out. And reaching out, being vulnerable is not failure. It is the greatest show of strength.
So just remember that. And until next time, please, take care of yourselves, take care of each other. And remember your story matters. So share it. Sharing your story might be the thing that changes someone else's life.
terence leclere (1:05:18)
Hi. Thank you, Sarah. Thanks everyone.