What happens when the crisis ends, but you are not quite sure how to begin living again? In this tender and deeply grounding conversation, Sarah speaks with Lani Almanza about grief, caregiving, identity, and the strange in-between space that comes after survival mode. Together, they explore what it means to come up for air, to honor what has been, and to keep moving toward what might still be possible.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (00:00) Hey everybody, welcome back to Taboo Talk with Sarah, the podcast that breaks the silence, fosters hope and talks about the tough stuff so you never feel alone. If you're new here, I'm Sarah. I'm a mum of three, a wellness advocate and host for the conversations we're often told not to have. Those chats about health, grief, identity, voice, healing and the systems that shape how we live our lives. Today's conversation feels like a continuation, but also an evolution.
My guest Lani Amanza has been here before and we've shared conversations on this podcast through hero makers in the Shine Circle and in the Be Empowered Women's Network. She's one of those rare humans who carries depth without heaviness and wisdom without ego. Last time we spoke, we talked about caregiving and survival, about what happens when life narrows into a crisis. This time feels a little different.
We're asking what happens when the crisis has passed, when the diagnosis stabilises or when caregiving shifts, when the loss has happened and the adrenaline drops. How do we live fully after that without feeling like we're betraying what we've been through? Lani has a new book out, which I'm really excited to read. It's called Beyond the Horizon, a guide for life's journey.
and it speaks directly into that space. Lani, welcome back.
Lani Almanza (01:31)
Thank you so much. Yes, and that was a perfect introduction because it has been an evolution since we first talked and just the spaces that we're both sharing now ⁓ with the Be Extraordinary Women's Network and the Shine Circle. ⁓ And yeah, I just I am excited to share where and how this new book came to life.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (01:59)
and we'll get into all of that but I am opening this season I'm opening every conversation with the same question
and I think I may know where you're gonna head, but you just might surprise me. So what is it that you've noticed in the world and in your life that now that you've noticed it, you can't unsee it? And what does that make you wanna do about it?
Lani Almanza (02:23)
Oh, what I've seen in the world, and it's not new, just seen it in a different light, is the need for connection.
Our world with all of its technology can seem very fragmented. Even with social media and everybody on it, it still doesn't feel connected. And for me, that's a very important part of who I am and what I do, is making sure that I'm connecting with people in a very authentic way.
⁓ and really providing in what I do a space for them to connect as well.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (03:07)
That connection is really important. We were never designed to do life alone and as you touched on the really interesting thing is with technology that has us more connected than ever we sometimes feel more isolated than ever. So I love that you helped to draw people back to connecting with themselves and with each other.
Lani Almanza (03:36)
Yeah.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (03:37)
out
your work from how it has evolved. And I just want to touch a little bit on your previous work. And there's a strange moment that happens after we passed through that crisis and that living in survival mode. Because the world keeps moving on, but we can sometimes get stuck. Or the, ⁓
Lani Almanza (03:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (04:04)
There's not the urgency. There's not the have to get to all these appointments, have to do all these things. And we sort of go, ⁓ where do we fit? How do we, how do we keep moving on when that thing that has been out, our focus for such a long time is suddenly gone.
Lani Almanza (04:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (04:30)
So what do you think changes in someone when they're in that shift? They're no longer in survival mode, but they haven't quite got to that next, where do I go from here?
Lani Almanza (04:41)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I certainly think that for many people that once you're sort of thrust into the deep end of the pool in that crisis situation and that caregiving, that deep caregiving role, oftentimes when it's over, you don't even know how to come up for air. And so you kind of...
maybe you come up, but you're just kind of treading water and not really making any progress anywhere. And I remember feeling that way after my son Jacob passed away 20 years ago. ⁓ That is like, need to get a foothold somewhere, but I'm just kind of treading water ⁓ in this big pool and looking for the sunlight or the way to get out and take a breath.
And so for me, that was sort of an aha moment. But I didn't come to it right away. I came to it almost 20 years later, 15 maybe, because...
Right after Jacob passed away, I transitioned into being a caregiver for my parents, my elderly parents. My dad had Parkinson's, my mom had Alzheimer's. And even though I wasn't caring for them in my home, I'm the oldest of four. And so that caregiving responsibility, a lot of it fell on my plate. And I remember very vividly the night that my mother passed away, after my father, the night that my mother passed away.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (05:56)
Yeah.
Lani Almanza (06:19)
realizing that I didn't have to leave my phone on for the first time in over 20 years. And that was like, that was a big inhale, exhale. Like, I could try at least to start to get sleep, which is so critical for our well-being. ⁓ And so I think having those aha moments myself about
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (06:26)
Yep.
Lani Almanza (06:47)
being able to breathe and being able to sleep kind of have become the foundation of the work that I do, the wellness work that I do, helping people to get to those points. Because like I said, when you're in it or coming out of it, you're not sure where the light is gonna come from or where the rescue ring is gonna come from. You're just there treading water. ⁓ So.
That's kind of where I have moved and evolved in the work that I do.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (07:19)
And you now help people find that spot in the pool where they can actually put their feet down and breathe and just rest for minute while they figure out where to next. And you touched on a little bit too there. You could finally...
Lani Almanza (07:30)
Yeah.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (07:37)
turn your phone off and get some sleep. I think that's one of the things that people don't realise so much in that caring role is that you're so busy caring for everybody else that you sometimes forget to do those things for yourself or don't even realise that
Lani Almanza (07:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (07:59)
you were basically through all of that time sleeping with one eye open you were you were waiting for that phone to ring yeah so
Lani Almanza (08:04)
Yeah.
Yep. Yeah. You're waiting for
the next call, the what if. Yeah.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:14)
Yeah.
And if you're not actually waiting for those, your brain is still doing the what if, what if. And it gets, it gets tiring.
Lani Almanza (08:20)
Yeah
It
does, and it ⁓ takes practice to get to a point where you can make that shift from your brain having control to your heart being in control. ⁓ To turn off the what ifs and just sit with it, to sit with yourself.
I think I was just on a call yesterday that said, ⁓ the person said, a moment to meet yourself. And I loved how she put that.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:58)
Yeah, because sometimes when we are running around crazy, we forget who we are outside of those roles that we play. And that's something I wanted to ask you about is that when those roles shift, like you've been the caregiver, you've been the one holding everything together, then you come to that moment of who am I if I'm not doing
all these things and that you sort of you have to meet yourself again but also then rebuild that identity without erasing all of the stuff that you've been through. Let that be something that that builds you rather than that you go yeah let's just not talk about that.
Lani Almanza (09:24)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's that
your life experience becomes your credentials. ⁓ And I think you might have been on the call the other day where I said, if you need extra letters after my name for credentials, it's B-T-D-T, been there, done that. ⁓
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (10:00)
You
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
Lani Almanza (10:06)
Yeah.
So got the certificate. You you can put you can put the initials after my name if that's what you need. But that's my credentials. That's my credibility is that life experience and.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (10:10)
Yep.
Lani Almanza (10:20)
And not to diminish any of those roles because that's what got you here. That's how you learn the lessons and develop the wisdom to pass on to someone else. So, yeah, I think it's very valuable, but it's also important to recognize, to acknowledge that's where you came from. And I just this morning was writing a piece that actually it's an excerpt from my first book that calls that is She is Me. And I, you know,
this woman who is coming home from work and school and picking up her teenage son from basketball practice and gets home and collects the mail and cooks dinner and does the laundry. And then after that, she's doing homework and then tries to get some sleep before she has to do this all again the next day. And that in those moments, we often don't
see the chaos that we're in. And so for me, it was really important to try to develop ways for people to cultivate calm in their day. You know, it's especially when you're a caregiver, it comes in moments. It doesn't come in a two hour massage or many petty. Those are those are those are extravagant, you know, sometimes extravagant luxuries. But
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (11:42)
Yeah.
Lani Almanza (11:49)
That's not what's going to get you through the crisis moments. It's not what's going to calm you in the chaos. And so for me, it was just picking up on those little things that you can do in a moment ⁓ that will create that mind shift, bring you back to yourself, give you the oxygen that you need to think about your next choice ⁓ and make that from a calm space rather than chaos.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (12:18)
Yeah, to find those little moments that you can be, be the calm in the storm rather than getting swept away with the storm.
Lani Almanza (12:26)
Yeah. Which is very relevant
right now because here in Hawaii we are having very stormy weather. It's fun. This morning was thunder and rain and then it's kind of calmed for a bit. But ⁓ the weather report says don't let the blue skies fool you because another sweep is coming through. So.
⁓ You know, just knowing when to notice the blue sky. Like take that moment to notice the blue sky because another storm might be coming through.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (12:58)
Yeah, that's why they sometimes we get cyclones in northern parts of Australia and it's the yeah, they say that the eye of the storm can be the most dangerous part because you think it's passed and then it comes and hits you again. it's the taking those moments of calm where you can because they don't always last all that long.
Lani Almanza (13:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (13:28)
But then, and I think it'll probably feed into us talking about your new book, about life on the horizon. But I just wanted to talk about joy for a minute because we have those moments where we find the calm in the storm but then sometimes after we've lost the person we were caring for or we're out of that prolonged crisis.
Lani Almanza (13:52)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (13:53)
we start to notice those moments where we start to feel joy but it can be a little complicated in the...
Like, actually giving yourself permission to be happy once after that loss because it almost feels like you're being disloyal by finding the joy even though they're not with you anymore. And I know in your work you've possibly seen that tension, but now years later I know for myself
Lani Almanza (14:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (14:31)
Finding that joy and holding onto that joy and then catching the joy from memories of them, that's not disloyal, it can actually become a way of honoring them and their memory. But it takes time to get to that space.
Lani Almanza (14:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, very much so. Yeah, it
does. ⁓ And I think for me, it's when people are in the midst of their grief, ⁓ that's a different place than afterwards. And even right afterwards, I think sometimes it takes about a year.
⁓ to get past all of those first, the first anniversary or birthday or holiday that you're experiencing without that person, to really then to start to be able to find the joy in the memories. And ⁓ we made a very concerted effort ⁓ within that.
to find the joy in the memories of Jacob and the things, his personality or the things that he enjoyed and to continue to go to those places, whether it was physical or mental images ⁓ that connected, that kept us connected with him. ⁓ So much so that even our grandchildren, they've never met him in physical form. ⁓
but they know his presence in our family and talk about him and refer to him. And so you begin to find those little things that you can connect with that bring those moments of joy into the present moment and then take that and build new memories and connections from there.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (16:15)
and to let that joy be what carries you through and that remembrance and connection.
Lani Almanza (16:22)
And I often share with people that ⁓ grief isn't a one-time thing that you experience and then it goes away. I like the analogy of it being that, you know, your body is this jar or this box and ⁓ the grief is this little, or is a ball inside that. And initially it's taking up almost all the space inside the jar or the box. And it's not that the grief
goes away or becomes smaller, it feels smaller because you start to grow around it. The space that you have around that becomes bigger. And so the grief holds a smaller place, but it's always there. that, you know, it's kind of floating around in there and every now and then it'll hit the side of the wall or the jar and trigger a memory that may bring you to tears.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (16:56)
you grow.
Mm. Yeah.
Lani Almanza (17:20)
⁓ or may put you back in that deep grief moment. ⁓ But it's just a hit. It might be a song. I have a song that whenever it comes on, it used to trigger me a lot, and now it's just my recognition that Jacob's presence is with me. And so those things evolve as well. So the grief doesn't go away. It's still a piece of you. ⁓
That person is still a piece of you, especially if you're a mom ⁓ and it's with children. Their DNA is a piece of you. So it never goes away. ⁓ But you grow and evolve into a capacity that can hold that ⁓ with joy.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (17:59)
Yes.
Yes, there's still so much we have to learn about grief and how it works, but I love that too that it doesn't necessarily get smaller, we just grow around it and learn to navigate it a bit better. And yet those moments where it hits up against the wall and sometimes, I know in the early days, they would take me by surprise because I would be
Lani Almanza (18:28)
Yeah.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (18:35)
I would be fine and then all of a sudden it would hit me like a ton of bricks.
Lani Almanza (18:41)
Yeah.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (18:42)
And thankfully those days don't happen as much anymore.
Lani Almanza (18:49)
Yeah.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (18:50)
But yeah, will be those things like... Sorry. ⁓
Lani Almanza (18:50)
Yeah, and now when I feel that, when
I feel those sort of that hit or that trigger, ⁓ I'm much more aware of what's happening and, ⁓ you know, can take a deep breath and realize that.
It might be hitting hard and I might feel the need to cry and that's okay because that emotion needs to be released and then I'm back to my balanced homeostasis. ⁓ So it's not to try to avoid having those moments. It's to let them come and go. ⁓ Emotions, ⁓ I just did something where emotions are visitors.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (19:31)
Yeah.
Lani Almanza (19:37)
And so, you you can open the front door and let them in and then open the back door and escort them out.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (19:45)
I love that. Because yes, we don't have to get stuck in them. We don't have to let them stay longer than we really want them to. It's okay to say that. It's time for you to look at the back door now.
Lani Almanza (19:54)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (20:02)
And that's what healthy remembrance looks like. It's what when you've moved past that and you can say, yep, I'm feeling that, but I don't have to stay stuck in it if I don't choose to. And that brings us to looking past that and looking at the horizon and looking at what's next. So your book is titled Beyond the Horizon.
Lani Almanza (20:30)
Yep.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (20:32)
And when
somebody feels like life's already taken a lot, how do they get to that point where they can go, yeah, but there's still more and it's still okay for me to actually want more and to look at what that might be. Not in the way of hustling and not in the toxic positivity way, but in that grounded, honest...
Lani Almanza (20:51)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (21:01)
honoring what's been but knowing that there's still more.
Lani Almanza (21:05)
Yeah.
And I think it helps to just look at the definition of the horizon and the fact that I would say 99.9 % of us on the planet believe that it is round and that the horizon, if you get to that line, you're not going to fall off. So are you going to stay where you are? Are you really comfortable right where you are right now?
⁓ And maybe that seems, that horizon seems really far away. And that's why I love the image on the cover of my book because it's at the shoreline. And so are you going to take the first step into the water, past the dry sand into the water? And maybe that's all you can do right now is just stand there at the water's edge and let it lap over your feet. ⁓
Or are you going to maybe dive in and go further out and swim with the whales that are on the cover of the book? ⁓ And then beyond that, is there something further? And that's where I was when the whole idea of writing the book came up. I was I'd written the first book. kind of like, OK, I've, you know, check that off the bucket list. And now what's next?
in my journey ⁓ with what I want to do with my alaka'i wellness business and in getting that message out to the world. And it was a book called The Untethered Soul, which I highly recommend people read. But it really wasn't until the end of the book where I came across the quote from the author that said, if you're standing at the edges,
And let me actually read it because I always mess it up. ⁓
If you are willing to just stand at the edge and keep walking, you will go beyond.
And it's like, okay, so you can stay stuck where you are or you can start to take those steps and keep walking. And I didn't know beyond what at the moment, at that point in time, I just knew that that word was calling me to take the next step. And so I think it, you kind of have to come to that self-awareness.
of where you are in your journey, your life journey, and are you ready to take the next step, however big and bold that might be. ⁓ And if you think you're ready but you're unsure, there's lots of people that you can connect with that can help guide you. And I hope that's what this book will do for some people because it's written to help you kind of reflect and come to that self-awareness. ⁓
There's reflection questions and blank pages for you to journal if you choose to, to kind of guide you on through the seasons of life, through the seasons of grief, to discover maybe what's the next direction you want to take.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (24:12)
that's the thing it's going to be slightly different for everyone. For some it'll be writing that book, for some it'll be starting a business, for some it'll be moving places. Yeah why don't you that again? Yeah and that's the thing it's finding that thing that that works for you that
Lani Almanza (24:16)
Mm-hmm.
Starting a podcast.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (24:39)
that step because for each and every one of us there's something that we're meant to do, something that's bigger than just us. I think I said it in a previous episode but legacy is that thing that you live that outlives you. It's that doing those things that you know
actually matter and for each one of us that thing that lights that spark in our soul is slightly different.
Lani Almanza (25:16)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And that was one of the things that even from my first book, ⁓ hearing the impact that it had on people. one of the comments I got was from a mom who had young daughters, young adult daughters. And she said that she wanted her daughters to read it. And I just thought.
I'm having a generational impact. That's the legacy I want to leave.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (25:46)
and it's a good one to leaf.
So for anyone who's listening, who's, they've been through a similar journey to what you did and they don't quite know what that next step or how to take that next step. Is there one small shift that you think they could make that would help start that?
Lani Almanza (26:08)
one small shift. I think for me, and we've talked about this earlier, was that that first shift was
meeting myself in my breath, ⁓ that if we really honor our breath and
the fact that it is ⁓ one of the things, the first thing that sustains us in life. We come into the world and we take a big inhale. And when we leave, we make a big exhale. And in between, we don't pay much attention to it. But if you come to that awareness of that, it is so much a part of you ⁓ that make your breath something that you focus on intentionally every day.
that can start to make a big shift. I know for me it was those small moments where I just needed to inhale and exhale. And I don't know if I even realized how important it was in the beginning, but it became such a foundational habit for me that I really started to investigate and learn more about the power of our breath. So I would say whether you're in the midst of it or...
just afterwards ⁓ or going beyond, begin with your breath and really ⁓ cultivating that intentional awareness.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (27:36)
And sometimes it might be learning to breathe again because you realize that you've actually been holding your breath for a really long time.
Lani Almanza (27:39)
Yeah.
Yes,
yes. And that's one of the analogies I have in the book. And that's why there's whale tails on the front of it is this the whale's journey and the humpback whales that I'm familiar with here in the northern Pacific. ⁓ Once they go for a deep dive, when they come to the surface, the first thing they do is exhale and then inhale and.
that I think that's, you know, we're down in the deep trenches of our life journey, whether it's in caregiving or our professional work. We get down in the trenches of it.
And sometimes we forget to come up for air. And by the time you're trying to scramble to the surface, you are gasping for air. And so again, that importance of that intentional awareness of your breath and the importance of breathing can just become so enriching and create that foundation for the next step that you want to take in taking in your wellness journey.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (28:52)
Do you have any other amazing words of wisdom to share with us before we wrap things up?
Lani Almanza (28:55)
you
let's see. You know what? I'm going to a little bit of whimsy. ⁓ A bookmark that I have ⁓ in my new book is the advice from a whale. So first of all is make a splash. The next one is move with grace and beauty. The third is explore the depths of your true nature. Next is think big.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (29:06)
Go for it.
Lani Almanza (29:25)
Keep a song in your heart. And if you've never heard Humpback Whales singing, I highly recommend it. Go look that up on the internet. ⁓ The next one, yeah. The next one is remember to come up for air. And the last one, I love this one ⁓ because it says no blubbering.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (29:35)
Whale song is wonderful.
Lani Almanza (29:46)
And sometimes, yeah, sometimes we find ourselves in that place where we just are whining and it's like, no, don't go there. That's not gonna get you anywhere.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (29:49)
we were gonna eat.
No, no pity parties around here. It's okay to have one, just don't let it keep going for way too long.
Lani Almanza (30:02)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
don't stay down there.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:11)
Yep. Remember to come up for air.
Lani Almanza (30:13)
Yeah.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:15)
I love that. That is such a great advice from Wales and it's a perfect way to live our lives too. To make that splash, to do those big things and to just keep going. Just keep swimming and remember to come up for air when you need to.
Lani Almanza (30:19)
of Wales.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah,
it's, you know, they're they have a very long journey from Alaska to Hawaii every year and back. so it represented our life journey is like it comes and goes. come and go in different places of our life. And ⁓ we need some of those those reminders of how not to lose ourself or drown along the way.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (31:03)
you
So I think that's a great spot for us to wind things up. For everyone listening, just remember that piece of advice to keep breathing, to meet yourself, and to get to really know who you are and what it is that lights you up and find that.
that thing that's at your horizon or even beyond your horizon and all it takes is take those little steps and just keep moving on that journey and remember that we grow around our grief and living fully going for that horizon isn't a betrayal
it's a way of honouring what has been before. If you're in that in-betweeny space, you're not in crisis but you haven't quite figured out what's next, I hope that this conversation gives you permission to say to yourself, it's okay to not know what's next and to just keep looking to the horizon until you find it.
Lani, thank you, thank you for sharing your wisdom. I always love when we get to talk. I knew that there was bound to be a big laugh somewhere in there, so thank you for that and for the reminder of no blubbering allowed.
Lani Almanza (32:29)
Yeah.
Yeah. You're welcome.
Yeah. ⁓
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:44)
because
it is really easy to get caught up in that or to spend so much time looking at the past and get stuck in that and forget that there's a big wonderful future out there. So thank you for the reminder that it is out there and we can go look for it and find what it is. So, yes!
Lani Almanza (32:49)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes, please do.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (33:13)
and go and read Lani's book.
Lani Almanza (33:15)
There it is.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (33:16)
Beyond
the Horizon, a guide for life's journey. and that cover is amazing. And I'm pretty sure we'll find it in all the places where we find great books. So is there?
Lani Almanza (33:20)
Thanks.
So yeah,
it's on Amazon. And if you go to my website, Alaka'i Associates, there's a link there. So I would love to hear.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (33:32)
Yeah, great.
And I'll put
that link in the show notes as well so people can find your book. Yeah, thank you. So on that note, I'm Sarah Jordan Ross and this has been Taboo Talk. Thank you for joining us. Lani, thank you for sharing your wisdom. And to everyone listening,
Lani Almanza (33:48)
Thank you, Sarah. It's always a pleasure.
Jeff Ross & Sarah Jordan-Ross (34:10)
Until next time, take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and remember, your story matters, so share it. You never know when your story might be the one that changes somebody else's life.
for now.