Why do we avoid the conversations that matter most—until it’s too late? In this deeply reflective episode, Sarah sits down with Jermaine Ee, founder of HeirLight, to unpack mortality, legacy, and the emotional cost of not having the conversations we know we should. This isn’t about paperwork—it’s about people, stories, and choosing to live, love, and connect more intentionally while we still can.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (00:00.568) And welcome back to Taboo Talk with Sarah, the podcast that breaks the silence, fosters hope and talks about the tough stuff so you never feel alone. If you're new here, I'm Sarah. I'm a mum of three, a wellness advocate and host of the conversations we're often told not to have talking about health, grief, identity, voice and the systems that shape our lives. And today's conversation fits right in that space because there are some topics we tend to push aside.
not because they don't matter, but because they matter so much we don't quite know how to face them. Things like mortality, legacy, what we leave behind or even just how to start those conversations with the people we love. Now last season I had a conversation with Loretta Omland about wills and the conversations we tend to avoid and how having them can actually make life easier for the people we love.
Today's conversation feels like the next layer to that one. Because this isn't just about what we do, it's about why we avoid it in the first place and what it asks of us to face it. My guest today is Jermaine E, founder of Air Lite. And what I really appreciate about his work is the reality that it's not about paperwork, it's about people.
It's about helping families have the conversations they often avoid until it's too late. Jermaine, welcome. It's so great to have you here.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (01:35.992)
Thanks for having me.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (01:39.618)
So I'm starting every episode this season with this same question. What is the thing that you have noticed in the world that now that you've noticed it, you can't unsee it and what does it make you want to do about it?
Jermaine @ HeirLight (01:58.062)
The first thing that comes to mind is that what we focus on shapes our entire reality. So, you know, we're living through very turbulent times in the world, you know, be it political, economic, there's war, there's multiple wars going on right now. And it's easy to focus on all of that and to feel anxious all the time. And I think, you know, we give power to what we focus on.
It is certainly not the first time in the history of mankind that we have wars or that we have all these things, economic problems and all these things that's going on out there. the fact that, yeah, it happens in cycles, it happens in, and cycles overlap in different civilization, but it's what we place a focus on that shapes the way we wake up and we live our lives.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (02:41.786)
Yeah, it tends to happen in cycles.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (03:01.546)
and you've built your work around something most of us actively avoid, and that is talking about death, planning for what happens after we're gone. Why do you think we avoid it so much?
Jermaine @ HeirLight (03:19.788)
I think it's cultural, it's generational. I think people avoid it for many, many reasons. But I think it's just human nature that urgent beats important every time. We go through life thinking about all the things that are just popping up, the notifications and the bills we got to pay. But it's really rare that, and it's not human nature for us to just stop and say,
Maybe I'm spending too much time on something that is just like a flashing red light in front of me and, and forgoing all the things that are important.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (03:57.998)
Yeah. Because it's easy to get distracted by those, those constant notifications and constantly being putting out fires in our lives for one of a better word that we don't focus on what's down the track.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (04:12.538)
And certainly our human brains are not wired for this amount of input that we have these days. So I think this human brain that we have is how many thousand years old, but this information that's tuned, the algorithm that's tuned to bring us dopamine, certainly our brain hasn't caught up to it yet.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (04:20.558)
No.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (04:34.478)
No, no, and we're not supposed to be constantly bombarded and constantly in that state of, of nervous system arousal, but we end up, we end up there and it starts to have, have a cost.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (04:50.414)
Yeah, and I will say, I think we can also use it to our advantage. You know, it's like if you do open your social media, the feed is so good at predicting what you want that if you, you know, just, just try this, right? You, let's say you feel like your feed is too negative. There's a lot of sensationalized news and dramatic news that's going on. Search for happy cat videos. Watch 15 of them.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (05:02.318)
Yeah.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (05:18.994)
like, comment, share. And the next morning when you wake up, you're probably going to see more happy cat videos. So I think it's this like intentional effort that we don't think about. Like we can actually fine tune our algorithms to service instead of to take away from us.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (05:37.902)
Yes, but it does take that conscious thought to make the algorithm do the things that you want it to do and to get it to bring you what you actually want to see instead of what you don't.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (05:53.135)
Yeah, I think that's what we're all here for. We try to listen to podcasts and try to latch onto stories and people whose voices remind us of what we really want. And so if you're listening to this, really do go to Instagram or Facebook to like a few more things that are maybe slightly more positive. And then you can kind of see that your algorithm evolves.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (06:20.196)
And we get what we focus on. So as you said earlier, what we pay attention to is what we tend to notice more.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (06:34.67)
Yeah. So just wanted to say.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (06:40.75)
with that. And we tend to avoid conversations that we don't want to have as well. But have you seen avoiding those conversations play out in families because you estate planning, you do help families with that stage of life. And it's not really an enjoyable phase. I know from
my own experience and as I said in interview I did last season was
was so after my mom passed, there was so many conversations that it was like, I wish I had have asked her about that or the or being thankful for the conversations that we did have because then at least I knew what it was she wanted. But there's just so many decisions that have to be made in those in those days that actually, I think if we have them ahead of time, it has the potential to make that really
difficult time, a little less difficult. So how have you seen that play out in the families that you work with?
Jermaine @ HeirLight (07:59.033)
You know, the cost of not having, let's say, estate plan, let's just keep it simple. Let's talk about a will. And essentially it's just a document that says, what do you want to happen with the things that you have? But in the cost of not having one, on the worst case scenario is, you know, when your family is trying to grieve and to deal with the loss of someone they love.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (08:15.641)
Yeah.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (08:26.498)
that they have to at the same time go through a court process. And of course, this is different in different countries. I think for me, that's the most heartbreaking part. Like my mom had a trust. so even for us, like we had these plans set up and it was still so overwhelming when she passed. was still, you know, like my mom, she made it very clear to us, you know, what she wanted. For example, we knew
that she didn't want to be kept alive if she was just in a coma. And this was completely, like we know it clearly, four kids, my dad, we all knew. But I can't even imagine. So my mom had eight days where she was in a coma, and we had this discussion, and we all were aligned. Of course, it would be better if there's a legal paperwork that said that, but in our situation, my dad would be the one who made the decision.
and he was the one who made decisions. But I think of this story. There was this actress in Florida who got into an accident and was in a coma. And for six years, her husband fought her parents on whether or not to keep her alive, hooked up to the machine. And her husband knew what she wanted, but they didn't...
make any documents, right? They didn't have it notarized or have a witness. And so the parents, I just, I just feel for them, right? I just have so much empathy for them going through this process of thinking we want to do what we think is best. Not knowing that her daughter, their daughter had already discussed with her husband. And I think it's these things that, you know, can be avoided fairly easily with the tools and
the apps like mine and the lawyers out there, the resources and tools are available. But I think it's just a difficult conversation for most people.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (10:30.83)
Yeah, I suppose it's one of those things that we don't really want to think about.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (10:36.514)
I think it's.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (10:36.9)
But then there comes a time for most of us when we have to.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (10:41.41)
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's one of those things where it's not top of mind. It's not urgent until it is. Which is also why my business is so difficult, right? I'm trying to get someone to do something they don't want to do. I'm trying to, I'm trying to say in the middle of a Tuesday where you have emails filling into your phone and you got to drop off the kids and you got to pay your bills and do all these things. I'm trying to stop them at their tracks and say, Hey, this is important.
And the answer that most people say, or at least 70 % of Americans who don't have an estate plan, the most common reason is, I'll do it another time. You know, I'll do it next weekend when I have some time. And so our goal really is to make it as easy as possible, to make it as light as possible, to just have a conversation. And so that's where we start.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (11:39.514)
I know most times with that it'll be thinking about where the money goes or the property goes, but.
There's, there's more to it than that, but it doesn't have to be all that complicated. You can make it, it easy. And legacy feels like something much bigger just than, than the money. It's also what we leave behind that outlives us, what we live that outlives us. Or at least that's what legacy means to me. What does legacy mean to you?
now, especially in light of the work that you do. Because maybe if people start thinking more about that, it would make your job a little bit easier.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (12:31.106)
I have a very complicated relationship with legacy. On the one hand, know, legacy to me is what people say behind your backs when you're not in a room. Right. That's like an ongoing living legacy. You can call it a reputation. can call it your trustworthiness or but since losing my mom seven months ago, I have a whole different perspective about
legacy. In some ways, yes, we should do work that's important. Yes, we should help others if we can. Yes, we should take care of those in our community, our family. But at the same time, life is so fickle, right? It's like if we put so much emphasis on what is to come, the opinions, because in some ways you only have legacy if there is an opinion of you from another person.
But I would say I want to spend less time thinking about the opinion of who knows who the day, their opinion. And I want to spend more time on just this little close circle that I have with the people that I love and doing things that brings a little bit of joy to our lives. And if we can lift other people up along the way, that's great. You know, and that's, that's why, you know, I'm building an app that helps people do that.
But my relationship with the word legacy has completely shifted in the past few weeks. What I realized is that in one generation and two generations, nobody would know my mother's name, even my kids or my grandkids. So who am I to think that I am so important to leave something of a legacy behind?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (14:24.666)
And for me, it's not so much, it's 12 years now since I lost my mum and it's still very, very raw for you. But I know it's not the material things so much as the memories of who she was and what she gave.
how those lessons can live on in my children who, unfortunately, two of mine never got to meet their grandmother, but they still know things about her. know the stories. But I read once that those that we have lost are never truly gone until we forget them. But as you said,
a couple of generations down the road, there's not going to be as many people who remember.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (15:31.595)
And the impact, you know, that I'll speak for my own mom because I don't know your mom. You know, the impact, the impact of my mother is living through me. You know, I'm actually, I'm in the middle of editing a video of me going back to Oklahoma where my parents started. So because I'm building air light.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (15:38.03)
Yeah, go for it.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (15:57.707)
And the way Air Lite came about is I started spending more time with my mom and I realized I know a lot about her today, but I didn't know a lot about who she was before she was my mother. And I wanted to find out more. it's never a convenient time to have these conversations. So I built a little chatbot to talk to her and to ask her questions, simple questions such as who were you before you were my mom? You what were your hobbies?
What was something that you were obsessed about when you were 18 years old? You know things things that just kind of predates me and from this journey of understanding and kind of downloading this information about her and helping her feel nostalgic about her journey I I come to learn that you know, she really treasured some memories that I have little to no connection to and one of those was
the first years in Oklahoma when she first moved from Malaysia to Oklahoma.
And at the time, we know when she moved to Oklahoma, she, like many American immigrants, she didn't speak any English. She started working jobs in restaurants and cleaning homes and things like that. And she wanted to go back to Oklahoma 40 years later to check it out, to see, you know, if things have changed. And so because of this chat bot that I built for her, I realized this was important for her. And then we went last May to Oklahoma.
And so, yeah, we drove around Oklahoma. We saw her university. We saw where her and my dad met. You know, we like saw the places where it used to be the restaurant that they worked in. And in this journey, you know, it just like reminded me of where my family's American dream started. I think it gave us so much more perspective. And it was, I think, the highlight.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (18:02.934)
of the trip was when we were at her university. I remembered her saying that her first meal in the United States was a Burger King. And I say, you know what? Let's why don't we try to go find that Burger King? And and we did. And the Burger King was still there. Same location, but renovated, you slightly dressed up. And we walked in and I asked her, like, do you remember what you ordered? And of course, she ordered a chicken sandwich.
40 years ago. And so I said, hey, why don't you go and order it? The same thing. So I had her mic'd up. I was filming her from the side and her and my dad rolled up to the counter and asked them for a chicken sandwich. And they were, it's so cute. They were joking with this young guy who was working behind the counter. And they said, you know, I was here 40 years ago. It was my first meal in the United States. And after she got the sandwich, I sat her down and
You know, it's like, hey, tell us, tell us how it was back then. How, how did you feel? And all this is on camera, by the way. And I think by time you release this, I'll have this on YouTube. And she, she opened up the sandwich and she split it in half. And she said, I, after I translated or converted the U S dollar to the Malaysian ringgit, I realized I can only afford half for my meal that day. And I had to save the other half.
And as she said that, she started tearing up because I think she realized how far she has come. And it finally set in for me, at least the purpose of this trip was to ask these questions, to capture these stories. You know, because as you say, stories about our parents only, you know, they only disappear if people stop telling.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (20:00.986)
That's it.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (20:01.342)
And selfishly, I wanted that for my kids who will never get to meet my mom. And so I'm actually in the middle of editing this video. I'll definitely send it over to you. Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (20:12.814)
I can't wait to see it. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll put a link to, to your YouTube channel so that people can listen to this episode. And then if they want to go check that out for themselves, they can, they can do that.
Yeah, because you're absolutely right. It's, memories and stories like that, that live on far after the person has gone and yeah, and stories can be what changes someone else's life.
So it's important that we do share, those stories and share our experiences that have changed how we do things. Now you mentioned your app and Airlight and that it came about from realizing that your mom was a person before she was your mom. And sometimes it's amazing learning the things that past generations have, have gone through.
And can't imagine how challenging it would have been for her being in a foreign country, very, very little money, not speaking the language and then going back and realizing just how much she'd grown through that experience and how different her life was now to what it was back then.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (21:48.909)
Yeah, she she'll never admit this. You know, if she was here, she would be mad at me for saying it, but she died a millionaire, you know, so and I always I think about that. And the only reason why I know this, I mean, aside from having her bank account now is that her facial lady told me that, you know, her facial lady who is the person who she talks and gossips about everything in life. She she said that like your mom.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (21:57.689)
Yeah.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (22:16.93)
she'll never say this because she's too humble, but she is so proud of herself on the fact that she started cleaning people's home and you know, my dad was mowing the lawns and that's how they started. And, and the fact that they made it just within the 40 years that their son is making money by talking on podcasts and building apps instead of having to do what they did. it's, that was the ultimate prize for them.
And I think for me though, you know, I know we talk about AirLite a little bit, my app, but it really started off as this project where I just wanted to get to know my parents a little bit more. And with this information that I got out of them, it just helped me see them more clearly. It's like when my mom passed last August, the app wasn't live yet.
So she never really got to experience what I built for her or in honor of her. But, but I'm just so grateful that because I was working on this app that she got to feel more seen. You know, she got to have these intentional conversations. She got to start dancing Zumba because we didn't realize she loved, she just wanted to dance. And the reason why she didn't dance is because she felt insecure going into a
classroom full of people by herself for the first time. And so my brother and I, we decided one day we're like, you know what, let's go to Zumba with mom. So it was a room full of middle-aged woman and the two of us kind of awkwardly dancing with my mom in the back. But all it took was one dance. All it took is one class and my mom felt confident enough and comfortable enough to start going by herself.
we wouldn't have really known all these things about her or at least how important dancing was to her if we didn't really intentionally have these conversations. so, yeah, to be honest, me going on podcasts, me doing this kind of PR round really is just to remind people. Like if you still, if you're lucky enough to be able to ask these questions, you should.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (24:39.341)
them. Yeah.
Yes, if you still have the chance to get to know your parents as, as people, not just as your mum and dad, but to get to know what's important to them and what they think about different things, then take that chance and ask those questions. Knowing that stuff is not something you'll ever regret, but not asking it. That you possibly will.
We'll regret.
So you've got those amazing stories to hold on to where had you not have asked the questions, you wouldn't have that. So that's really, really special.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (25:28.11)
We were lucky as a family. We talk about a lot of things. know, like we went to this Oklahoma trip, not knowing that it was going to be one of the last ones, the second to the last trip. And we made the most out of it. We enjoyed it. We laughed and it was like, this video is funny. know, we like, we have a lot of jokes in it. And as I look back at it, I realized all our trips were very lighthearted.
Very fun. Nobody cared if we did everything, we didn't have to list to check off. We just wanted to just be around each other and do something interesting. But am I grateful that, you know, we went on these trips while we had the chance to, because we didn't know. We didn't know these would be like the farewell tour. So, yeah, in many ways, like what I'm building now, like it's just.
Gosh, it's just like a reflection of who I am as a person. I'm trying to get more people to think about this, just to think of it not from a legal angle. Like if you come into my app and you never created a will, it's not great, but it's fine. But you can still have these conversations. If anything, it's kind of a bridge to starting to get comfortable with these conversations. What's very interesting to me is that we have some users who are in their 60s.
And by all measurements, they are wealthy enough to hire an attorney to get this document done. And I only got to talk to one of them and I asked them, you know, why, why did you use my app? Because, hey, look, you, you obviously have money, you know, you can hire help to do this, to, make a more extensive plan than our very basic estate plans.
And the simple answer was that he didn't want to talk to another human about what is so personal to him. And he didn't want to talk to another human about potentially what he thought he had to know. It's like this ego thing where when I'm 60, I should know what an executor is. I should know what a living will is and all this preconceived notions of what you should know.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (27:54.559)
so it is in some ways avoidance and, know, in a different form, it's avoidance of, I guess having an ego, and not wanting to tell people that I didn't know these things. So yeah, I've been shocked by why people use my app. And, and I'm also at the same time, very happy that somehow we found a solution for people who have been putting it off for whatever reason.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (27:54.778)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (28:25.774)
Cause yeah, making a will and getting those things in order is something that we tend to put off. Like planning can feel like it then gives us more control over things, but it also first requires us accepting that there's some things that we don't get to control. So we never know when the, the last trip's going to be the last trip or
What's going to happen tomorrow. So it's great that there is something like your app that makes it easier to, to do those things. And I remember years ago, my sister actually, when she, she made a will and she did go to solicitor and get it, get it done. And it was like, many questions and it was the, well,
Like say she was going to leave something to somebody. like, but what if they go before you do? It was like, she said, like she was half joking at the time, but she walked out of that and said, it felt like everybody she knew was, and it was quite confronting and uncomfortable. So I guess, yeah.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (29:46.647)
It is. And if you really sit down with a lawyer, you get even deeper questions of like, what if you had a child out of wedlock that you didn't know about who was biological? it's like, you can go deep into this process. And that is a real question that my attorney asked me for my own. So as I, yeah, I think.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:05.529)
Yeah.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (30:15.002)
asking questions that nobody else asks, but I think I'd have trouble with some of those too.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (30:21.318)
And some of it is a moral question too, right? It's like the example I gave you, know, what if I passed and I have two kids, but then a third one appeared that I didn't know about, you know, but it's proven, it's provable that the genetics are mine, you know, what happens then. So there's, I mean, there's certainly a lot of situations where an attorney, a solicitor can come in and be very helpful in this conversation. But I think
where I am trying to meet people is that first step. It's the zero to one. It's the, I know I need to have this done, but for one reason or another, I keep putting it off. Let me try to be the most frictionless way to get started. I have at this point referred between 20 to 25 of my users to attorneys.
I don't want to become an attorney referral platform, even though that would be fairly lucrative. But, you know, I just really want to focus on the folks who look like my mom, know, folks who, especially women who worked hard all their life, save money to take care of the people that they love. But in the back of their mind, having this assumption that estate planning isn't for them because it's complicated, it's expensive and
that it's just not for them. And I wanna address people who thought like that, like my mom thought. And I wanna just give them a tool that maybe it's easy. So we are building out like Mandarin support, Vietnamese support, Spanish support. There's a little bit of like legal issues there that we're working through. But at the end of the day, I think the people that need this the most.
will end up being the people who actually don't speak English as their first language, you know, or move to a country that is not their first and feels like they're outside of the system a little bit. And I relate so deeply to that feeling that my mom has that, you know, it's top of mind in terms of how we build our product.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (32:41.188)
And as it should be, it's getting to those people that need help to get the ball rolling and wouldn't otherwise go and do that. Because it's a confronting thing. the, do I really have to? Do I need to? I don't have that much. Or isn't it just simple and straightforward and it'll all go where it's supposed to. So how do you, apart from...
with your app. I'd love to go into a bit more detail of what it actually does, but how do you help people face that reality and realize it doesn't have to be that difficult confronting challenging thing, but it can actually be quite simple and straightforward.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (33:31.704)
You know, I think starting small is the goal. You know, if you think about the tagline of our company is clarity is love in practical form.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (33:44.058)
That's beautiful.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (33:45.773)
We want to help people feel more grounded. We want to help people feel like they know where they are today because, how could you possibly know what is enough if you don't know where your starting point is? And so a big part of our goal, you know, beyond the legal documents is just to help people put what they have together, see it in an inventory, you know, inside our app and on the computer screen.
I get this feeling. In fact, if you're watching this on video, these are my five journals. And I'm just holding up five books here of the last five years since COVID. And what I realized, this is like a practice that I have, which is I like to write down, how do I feel right now? What's frustrating me right now? What am I looking forward to right now? Just to kind of get a sanity check of life. And it's the same for financial accounts, people, things.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (34:21.498)
you
Jermaine @ HeirLight (34:45.42)
You know, when you see your life organized, it is this very grounding feeling. You know, at least you confront the truth of where you are. And whatever comes tomorrow, you know, at least you know your starting point. So I like to think of the estate planning process that way. You know, it's all about the clarity. It's all about helping people feel more in control.
of at least what they have because everything is so uncertain these days. So at least, you know, be certain in your own home of your own things.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (35:26.362)
I think so often will, but people who've moved around a lot or have had that instability or have moved countries, sometimes we don't even know exactly what it is we do have until we actually sit down and think about it. I know after my mum passed, I ended up with a whole lot more stuff in my house than...
than I had had before. I know at one stage I went through and cleaned out things because I really don't need three of that.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (35:55.875)
I'm go-
Jermaine @ HeirLight (36:04.48)
I'm going through this right now. I am sitting right now as we're recording this in my mom's desk in our office. So I am just looking at everything and cleaning out her stuff. And we're taking turns because there's four siblings. But one thing that I realized with my mom, and I think this is a very relatable feeling, which is she is a saver.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (36:06.682)
Yep.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (36:34.606)
I gifted her a bottle of lotion that is very expensive and she was rationing it. She opened it, but she used 20 % of it and now I get to use it. And I'm like, gosh, and it had been more than a year since I gifted to her, so I got to use it quickly before it expires. And it's the same for her facial stuff and a lot of things. And I understand where that mindset came from.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (36:41.367)
She never opened it.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (37:04.716)
you know, having not much and having to save. But I wish I don't have lot of regrets. But if I had one, I would start earlier to try to help her enjoy more of her life. If I can. Because I just feel like she worked so hard and, you know, she didn't really get to enjoy it. And I mean, I get to enjoy it now and
Sarah Jordan-Ross (37:05.112)
Mm.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (37:34.935)
And I don't need it. yeah, it is one of those things where we don't know how much we have. actually, so on a totally side note here, my girlfriend is Ukrainian and her country is at war right now and has been at the last four years. I remember the first time I went to Kiev during the war. And I mean, the war is still going. I went to Kiev the first time in 2023.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (37:51.012)
Yes.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (38:02.656)
I asked her, like, do people wear expensive jewelry and dress up so nicely all the time? And it is because we're just out in a casual dinner on a Wednesday night. And she told me that yes, Ukrainians tend to dress nice when they go out. Unlike most Americans in sweatpants and hoodies, they tend to dress nice. But since the full-scale invasion of 2022,
You know, people used to save their best necklaces for special occasion. But with the war, every day is a special occasion. You you just never know. And it is so real to them. And it really shifted the way I thought of the things that I have. You know, I too save a nice t-shirt for special occasion. But now I'm just, you know, I'm just going to wear it. And if I really love it, I'll get another one.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (39:00.02)
Every day is a special occasion.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (39:03.072)
It truly is, but it's hard to remember that.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (39:06.079)
Yeah, that's, I will admit that's one of the lessons I'm grateful to, to my mum for. She had ovarian cancer, so she, and she was sick for a long time. And growing up, we'd had this particular dinner set that was the Christmas dinner set. When she got sick, she said, I've got all of these
beautiful things and I never use them. They're just sitting in the cupboard gathering dust and that's not what they were made for. So the Christmas dinner set became the everyday dinner set or the favourite perfume that had been saved again for special occasions was the...nup that gets sprayed every day if I feel like it. Granted she couldn't always
perfume because she was a bit sensitive to it but it was the yeah and for me it's the that dinner set is still the the everyday dinner set in my home and yeah I wear the special perfume or the favorite pair of shoes or whatever it is because every day is special and every day should be celebrated and we grab as much joy
out of it as we can.
listening to your story. That's the thing is you wish your mum had have held onto a little bit more of that joy. So now what you can do is you make sure that you have as much joy and share it around as much as you can.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (40:59.022)
Thanks for sharing that. I know as you're saying that I'm imagining a set of cutlery and glasses and things that we have at home. You know, that's the cool thing about having a show like this, a podcast like this. It's that, you know, we share these stories. They seem so ordinary, but as I'm listening to you, you know, I have visuals of exactly what that is for me too. And I think it's these stories that we need to
surround ourselves by and just remind each other to live more intentionally, to live the way that we want to before all the urgent things come crashing into our lives again and we forget about that again. And yes, I will now put on some lotion on my hand as we're speaking because why not?
Sarah Jordan-Ross (41:52.525)
Exactly.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (41:57.818)
It's using those things and sharing the joy. And I think for me, as funny as it's going to sound, that estate planning and planning where those things go and making those things special, because those things do carry memories and
as hard as it is to have those conversations. Like what you do now was born out of a conversation you had with your mum about sharing her experience and asking her who she was. So us planning for what comes after we've gone is can be our way of sharing those stories with with those we love.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:04.558)
And as you said, it's about creating that clarity and about care. was your tagline again? was clarity is love in action. Yep.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (43:14.606)
Tagline, clarity is love in practical form.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (43:23.096)
And that I think is a wonderful note for us to end on unless of course there's anything else you'd like to share with those watching.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (43:35.235)
Yeah, you know, in this world that we're living through right now, we have so much, so much. We just have things, digital things, for example, all the accounts that we have, you know, it's pretty messy. Even for someone like me, who's like a kind of a digital structure kind of thing. Yeah, it's pretty messy. I would say, you know, sometimes when I think about this, I thought...
My mom gave me a gift that she had put all her passwords into one Apple dock on her phone. It's not the most secure, but she gave me a gift. And I just think about that often that like, you know, if I didn't have that, I would have to dig through all of her things. so, so, know, sometimes we think if it's not for ourselves, it's definitely for the people we love to just give them a little bit less of the mess to handle in the future.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (44:14.382)
Yes.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (44:36.27)
Actually, I thought of this here. Yeah, many decisions away and many digging through documents and emails. I'll leave the listeners with this one little story that I have. In the years leading up to my mom's sudden passing, because she had started making money in her business and she had more, had more disposable income.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (44:36.57)
Take a few decisions away.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (44:44.879)
Yeah.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (45:02.936)
She had been telling me, hey, Jermaine, I want to give you a watch. I want to give you a Swiss mechanical watch because it's going to be at Heirloom. I want you to keep it for a long time. And for more than a year and a half, I had been saying, no, I am a grownup. I'm going to buy my own watch. I will get it. You know, because I don't, I don't really want my mom to buy me something expensive.
I really wish I took that watch. You know, I am someone who is so horrible at accepting gifts, big and small, that I think now I try to remind myself when a friend wants to do something nice for me, I'm going to try to let them. When my girlfriend wants to give me something, I try to remind myself to let them do it. You know, because it's as much joy, I think, for them.
as it is for us who are receiving. So that's my parting note. You know, it's not a regret, so to speak, but it be nice. It would be nice to have a mechanical watch from my mother, maybe engraved in her name so that I can pass it down to my kids in the future.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (46:15.642)
Thanks
Sarah Jordan-Ross (46:20.366)
Yes.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (46:24.826)
that's still something you could in a roundabout kind of way do. Is that something she wanted to do for you and you didn't let her? Yeah. So.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (46:32.398)
Oh yeah, got my dad to give me one. I didn't wait any longer. I went to the shop with my dad two months after my mom's funeral and I was like, hey dad, don't want to force you to give me something, but let's go pick out a watch.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (46:40.74)
Good.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (46:51.982)
Yeah. And it was something you guys got to do together. So that's, that's good. But yes, sometimes people get as much joy from giving as you do from receiving. And we should let people show their love in whatever way works for them.
So for everyone listening, if something in today's conversation has resonated with you, if there's a conversation you've been avoiding, maybe this is your moment to gently start it, to have that conversation. Doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't all have to be done at once, but just make that first step. Ask that first question. Take that first step to planning.
Because as we've just shared with a few of our stories, legacy isn't just what we leave behind. It's what we leave with the people we love while we're still here. That's what carries on. That's what lasts much longer. And sharing your stories, having those conversations that people know.
who you are that you get to see and to be seen. Jemaine, thank you so much for sitting down with me today and for sharing your stories and your stories about your wonderful mum as well.
And yeah, because talking about death and planning and what comes on after that, it's not an easy conversation to have. So I thank you for what you're doing to make those conversations easier. And to everyone listening, just in case you didn't hear it, share your story because it just might be the one that changes someone else's life.
Jermaine @ HeirLight (48:34.232)
Thank you for having me.
Sarah Jordan-Ross (49:03.65)
I'm Sarah Jordan Ross and this has been Tabri Talk. Until next time, take care of yourselves, take care of each other and remember your story matters and how you choose to live it matters too.